Harold Shipman is Britain's most prolific serial killer.
A well-respected doctor, he abused his position of trust,
poisoning over 250 patients.
I've been advised to stand and let you take a photograph
and then go on in. RIMMER: If a bomb had gone off,
there wouldn't be as many victims. (PHONE RINGS)
To start off with, we're investigating one death.
Within a couple of weeks that grew to 62 deaths.
We had a white board there, with no names on.
And at the end of the inquiry, the white board was totally full.
And it was like, "Oh, my God."
On the 20th anniversary of Shipman's arrest,
this film, with new witness testimony,
tells the inside story of how he got away with murder
for nearly three decades.
They thought it was obscene that we should be questioning
anything to do with Shipman.
A serial killer hiding in plain sight,
Shipman groomed a community...
O'BRIEN: People, to this day, still think that he was
the best doctor ever.
..and preyed on the most vulnerable.
I just thought, "Oh, my goodness.
You know, maybe, he killed my mum as well."
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
We expose the scale of Shipman's drug addiction
that nearly saw him struck off the medical register.
The Chairman says he doesn't think he's a danger to the public, so he's not gonna strikehim off.
And a nurse, in her first interview,
reveals how his killing spree began
as a junior doctor on the hospital wards.
WHITEHEAD: One night, we had three deaths.
We just went from room to room, and the patient had died.
For the first time, detectives at the heart of the case
explained the tactics they used
to bring the man they called Dr Death to justice,
and the emotional toll it had on them.
O'BRIEN: I can remember, sat at home one night, with the wife,
and I just broke down in tears.
I'm just sick of all this death and destruction.
(ELEVATOR CHIMES)
On 7th September 1998,
Harold Shipman, a trusted family doctor
from the small town of Hyde, near Manchester,
was arrested for the murder of one of his elderly patients.
Waiting to interview Shipman were two young detectives,
John Walker and Mark Denham.
This is the first time that Mark Denham
has spoken publicly about coming face to face
with Britain's most infamous killer.
DENHAM: For me, at that time, it was quite a big thing
because I was a fairly young detective.
I'd only been a detective less than a couple of years.
And to be chosen to do the interviews
was, erm, it was great for me.
I can picture the room. I can remember where I was sitting.
And John was at the side and then, er,
his legal representative, and he was there.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
(SHIPMAN SPEAKING)
He wasn't a scary person or anything like that.
It was just his arrogance. Sort of... (SCOFFS)
He was pushing me aside a little bit, you know.
(PHONE RINGING)
Britain's biggest ever murder inquiry started six weeks earlier
with a phone call about a fraud.
I got a telephone call, telling me
about the fact that there had been some suspicions around a will,
er, which had been written for a woman called Kathleen Grundy.
Kathleen Grundy was a former mayor of Hyde.
She had died a month earlier.
Her will set alarm bells ringing in the mind of her daughter,
Angela Woodruff, a solicitor.
Angela Woodruff was really concerned
that there was something not right
about the circumstances surrounding this will,
how it had turned up.
She didn't think that it was her mother's wishes at all
and she wanted it investigated.
One of the things that's talked about in the will is about,
"Leaving my house to my doctor."
Well, Kathleen Grundy actually owned two properties.
So, if she was writing her own will, she would've been talking about,
"Leaving my two houses,"
which indicated that it hadn't been written by Kathleen Grundy.
The doctor named in the will was Kathleen Grundy's GP,
Harold Frederick Shipman.
I sent officers to get search warrants
for Dr Shipman's surgery.
Dr Shipman used to conduct a surgery on a Saturday morning
and we waited till he was locking up,
and then went to execute the warrant.
The search of Shipman's surgery would blow the case wide open.
When they started the search, Dr Shipman said, "You'll need this.
Mrs Grundy used to borrow it from time to time,"
and that was the typewriter."
The typewriter was examined, along with the will,
by the handwriting experts.
And they were able to say that that typewriter
has typed that will.
One of the keys didn't give the right impression,
which is really a godsend in an inquiry
where you're wanting to gather forensic evidence
to show that that typewriter made that document.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
He's asked a number of direct questions about it,
which he deals with very simply
and straight-forwardly, just by saying, "No."
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
He was quite comfortable in his own mind
that he could tough it out simply by denying everything.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
This was a very strange story that was being told,
and if it was true, it was likely that somebody was going to benefit
from the forged will. And one of the possibilities
was that Mrs Grundy had been murdered.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
Dr Shipman had also signed Kathleen Grundy's death certificate.
He stated, "She died of natural causes."
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
Despite the fact that Kathleen Grundy
was an elderly woman,
she was in fine physical shape. She'd been out walking
in the Peak District, only a day or two before she died.
So, the way that we were going to establish
whether Kathleen Grundy had died of natural causes
was to exhume the body
and have tests carried out by the pathologist.
The exhumation of Kathleen Grundy
would be the first ever carried out by Greater Manchester Police.
With no witnesses, crime scene or murder weapon,
it was the only way they could prove she'd been murdered.
O'BRIEN: We're at Hyde chapel,
which is where Kathleen Grundy was buried.
This is the cemetery where the first exhumation took place.
The weather was not really good at all. It was...
half past three in the morning. It was raining like this.
And you could see the...
the moon filtering through the clouds
that were passing over through the trees.
They'd do their best with tents and all that sort of thing,
to cover what you're doing.
But with noise - you can't do it quietly, unfortunately.
I can remember the...
the old folks' home there.
There was old people at the windows, crying.
It wasn't nice at all.
Something that... I'm never gonna forget that.
It was horrendous.
The police investigation was about to come under pressure.
A local newspaper received a tip-off,
linking Shipman to Kathleen Grundy's death
and the suspicion there could be many more.
SITFORD: I came into town, and I, erm,
started to ask people if they knew anything about the case.
And almost straight away, I bumped into two old ladies and they said,
"Oh, you mean Dr Death, do ya?" And I said, "Pardon?"
They said, "Oh, lots of old ladies have died with him.
They say he's a good doctor, but you don't last."
And I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I thought
I was investigating one death
and it turned out that people in the town
had been calling him Dr Death as a joke for two years,
because lots of elderly people died, usually with him present.
(PHONE RINGING)
POSTLES: Sometime on the morning of
I think it was 17th August, I got a phone call from the press office,
saying that they'd had an enquiry from the Manchester Evening News
and that, from the detail, that they were related.
They had pretty much the whole story.
Mikaela identified other female patients of Shipman
whose deaths were suspicious.
The police, understandably, were not happy
that we'd uncovered this story quite quickly.
At the same time,
because it appeared in the Manchester Evening News,
dozens and dozens of families in town came forward to say,
"That is exactly what happened to my mother."
Mikaela's front page story became national news.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER ON TV)
TV crews descended on Dr Shipman's surgery.
REPORTER: Is it possible for you to, er...
...possible for you to come and get something out of your car and then go back in?
I've been advised to stand and let you take a photograph
and then go in. And I'm sure you've had
enough time to take a decent photograph.
Is it possible for you just to say... Thank you.
I'm going back into surgery.
Anxious families demanded answers from the police.
POSTLES: It left us in a bit of a difficult situation.
Thank you, Doctor.
It was unfair to expect those family members
to speculate for a period of time
and for them to hear from the press
about which deaths happened to be on this list.
So, I had to send officers out to see those families.
Within a matter of days, the police were overwhelmed
as new victims emerged.
RIMMER: I think there was something like three or four on one street that died
and that we went back to investigate as potential murders.
It beggared belief. It really did.
Well, we're just going into Hyde now, into the town centre.
It's a working-class town. Population probably around about
35, 40,000 people,
on the outskirts of, er, Manchester.
This is where Dr Shipman's victims lived, worked.
Er, many of them had grown up here as well.
Twenty years ago, the revelation that a local GP,
Harold Shipman, could be killing his elderly patients
shocked the nation.
Here's that thing that I sent to you.
The people of Hyde were beginning to ask questions
that no-one should ever have to ask.
I must have been watching television,
and I just heard a Dr Shipman.
And I wasn't at that time really familiar,
but it kind of rang a bell.
So I rang Jean and said, "Wasn't that my mother's doctor?"
I just thought, "Oh, my goodness,
you know, maybe he killed my mum as well.
Perhaps I should have a word with the police when I get home."
But I was no sooner back than the police contacted me.
Well, I mean, things were different then.
You didn't just snap everything on your phone.
Well, you took pictures when you were on your holidays
and then you'd only take pictures of your Mum and Dad
when you got back, just to use the end of the film up, really.
She was bubbly, sociable, outgoing, liked talking to people.
She believed that you should smile at everybody
that was walking along the street, as she did.
Unfailingly positive, definitely.
Yeah. Would look on the bright side of things, all the time.
When the detectives were questioning me,
they would ask me various questions.
And every time I answered, they would look at each other and nod.
And then they would say to me, "Yeah, yeah."
And, you know, "Yes, it's...
It followed exactly the same pattern as all the other ones."
So, that was when I thought, "Well, yes."
(PHONES RINGING)
REID: As these early inquiries started,
we perhaps thought Kathleen Grundy and perhaps one or two others.
We couldn't have envisaged how it would all turn out, really.
POSTLES: To start off with, we were obviously investigating one death,
the death of Kathleen Grundy.
Within a couple of weeks, that grew to 17 deaths.
And again, within a very short period of time,
it had grown to 62 deaths.
We had a whiteboard there with no names on,
and at the end of the inquiry, the white board was totally full.
We couldn't fit any more on. We had to put extensions on.
And it was like, "Oh, my God." (PHONE RINGING)
O'BRIEN: I, personally, had never worked on anything like that
before in my life. I worked on lots and lots of murders,
but nothing like Shipman had ever happened.
No. It was just, it was massive.
I think there was something like
three or four on one street that had died
and that we went back to investigate as potential murders.
But... (SIGHS) It was, it beggared belief. It really did.
(PHONE RINGING)
REID: You'd speak to people and say, "Well,
how did the doctor tell you about the death of your mother?"
And they'd say, "Well, actually, he was actually quite abrupt."
(PHONE RINGING)
(RECEIVER PICKED UP)
JEAN: I was in bed, actually.
My husband came and woke me up
and said that Dr Shipman had been on the phone to him
and that my mum had died. And I was...
I was just in total disbelief.
The words Shipman had actually used to my husband was,
"I'm at Irene Berry's house, and she's not very well."
And he said, "Well, how bad is she?"
And he said, "Well, how bad can it get?"
The list of potential victims was growing by the day.
The hard evidence of Shipman's murderous method
was buried in the cemeteries of Hyde.
REPORTER: In pitch darkness, a procession of police vehicles
entered the cemetery at Hyde, near Manchester.
Just before 4am, the time chosen for maximum sensitivity,
the digging began. The area around the grave was screened off
as detectives exhumed another body.
The police had to exhume another 11 bodies.
It was very, very moving.
Very sad.
Knowing in your heart of heart, "Well,
would I want MY mother to be exhumed?"
And the answer is no, you wouldn't.
RIMMER: We were digging the grave back up
to do more tests on the mother
they've been grieving for for five years.
So it was opening the wounds again.
They would be grieving again,
the same as they were the first time round.
(CHURCH BELL RINGING)
Back then, there was a very different attitude
towards the medical profession.
Few ever questioned their doctor.
The people of Hyde were finding it hard to accept
that their respected GP could be a murderer.
Detectives were facing widespread resistance...
You all right? Cheers.
..which was getting in the way of their investigation.
Hello, girls.
You just think of how many people thought we'd made it up.
That it was a pack of lies. They thought the world of him.
But why? His patients thought he was God's gift.
We were met by some who were really aggressive.
How dare we come and suggest something about Shipman?
Because he was their doctor, they thought
he'd done a fabulous job with a parent.
They thought it was obscene that we should be questioning
anything to do with Shipman.
Nobody felt that they could speak against him.
He was this invincible man who...
As we know ourselves
from the reaction from people that we met.
He obviously thought he was invincible.
He was an arrogant bastard, without a doubt.
People to this day still think that he was the...
the best doctor ever.
My colleague and I went to one house and we were
physically frog-marched off the premises.
You know, they weren't happy about us being there at all.
Dr Shipman's surgery was on Market street
in the centre of Hyde.
Previously, he'd been part of a group practice.
But here, he was on his own with his patients,
which was just the way he liked it.
SITFORD: Shipman was really popular and when he went single-handed,
he took 3,000 patients with him and there was a waiting list.
He looked after a lot of families, different generations in those families.
But the ones who really liked him were the older generation.
He had a lot of time for them. He was happy to make home visits.
And that was a big deal to that generation.
And they would tidy up before the doctor came
and even buy him Christmas presents
to say thank you for all that he did for them.
But in fact, he was actually grooming the community.
And that's what makes it such a terrible betrayal.
Four weeks after Kathleen Grundy's body had been exhumed,
forensic tests revealed lethal levels of the painkiller, diamorphine.
It was the evidence the police needed.
DENHAM: I'm there to interview that bloke
to the best of my abilities with what evidence I've got.
But then, the jigsaw comes together, doesn't it?
The evidence was there, so as far as I'm concerned...
..that's enough.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
Drowning under the weight of evidence,
Shipman even tried to suggest
that Kathleen Grundy had taken a lethal dose herself.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
When it came back that she'd got this massive
diamorphine within the body,
we knew that we were dealing with a murder.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
Britain's most prolific serial killer, Harold Shipman,
started his career as a GP
in the small Yorkshire market town of Todmorden,
in 1974.
Shirley Horsfall was a close family friend of Shipman
and his wife Primrose.
I grew up in that house.
And the Shipmans lived in the fourth semi along.
Fred and Primrose made a good couple who was very friendly,
very caring. They used to come and see us if we were poorly at the house,
rather than have to go to the surgery.
Everybody liked him. Good sense of humour.
He would share a laugh with everyone. Very sociable.
Everybody knew every one else. We used to have
little get-togethers in each other's houses.
A good friend and a good neighbour.
They seemed a matched couple rather than the picture
that's being painted of Fred being a completely dominant
sort of almost Victorian, you know, sort of "Do as I say."
Certainly, that is not the real picture of that family.
Shirley, like everyone else,
did not know that Shipman had already begun his killing spree.
But he was careful choosing who to kill
and who to care for.
It was at one of our sort of get-togethers with the family
that Fred said, "I don't think your Mum's very well."
And it did turn out that she was terminally ill.
He picked up on my mum's illness and made sure she was looked after.
He had perfect opportunity, as he's her GP,
to kill her. And he didn't.
He obviously chose not to. He was very concerned about her
and got her the, you know, the best treatment that he could.
Which again makes it hard to believe that
he didn't look after other people's mums.
But in 1975,
Shipman nearly lost his job as a doctor.
As his addiction to murder grew, so did another addiction - drugs.
A local detective arrested him
for forging prescriptions and illegal possession.
This is the first time George McKeating
has spoken on camera.
I went to see Shipman and there were track marks down both his arms.
And I says, "Well, why were you using it?" And he says, "Well...
just stress originally, but then I got,
I got, I sort of got hooked on it, and I was using more and more."
We have obtained Shipman's original police statement.
In it, he confesses he's an addict and says
that he has "no future intention to return to general practice."
George McKeating went to give evidence
to the doctors' governing body, the General Medical Council.
He fully expected Shipman to be sacked.
I was sat with my briefcase, waiting to be called.
And this guy came through and said, "Oh, it's finished."
Just like that. I says, "What do you mean 'it's finished'?"
He goes, "It's finished."
"The Chairman doesn't think he's a danger to the public,
so he's not gonna strike him off."
So, I was a bit flabbergasted, to say the least.
In my experience, addicts very rarely rehabilitate.
And I thought, "I'm going to hear about this guy again."
Shipman was fined just £600 and sent to rehab.
The following summer in 1977,
he reappeared 30 miles away in Hyde.
He moved there with Primrose and their four children
and quickly rebuilt his reputation as a trustworthy doctor.
In 1982, his credibility beyond question,
Shipman even appeared in an ITV documentary on mental illness.
INTERVIEWER: ..patients and local doctors like Fred Shipman.
In the past, if a patient had got, er,
a mental illness that required admission to hospital,
the patient was formally admitted, undressed, placed in bed.
Shipman's nerve is startling,
given that he was already killing at will.
..and was treated as though they had a physical illness.
Under the radar and above suspicion,
a serial killer hiding in plain sight.
It was this brash Dr Shipman
who showed up at Ashton-under-Lyne police station
for his first interview with detectives
over the death of Kathleen Grundy.
And when he did, Chris Gleave of the Manchester Evening News
was there at a distance with his camera.
I'd had a tip-off that Dr Shipman was going to be arriving
at Ashton police station.
He stood outside the police station for about five or 10 minutes
and then he proceeded to walk the terraced street
behind the police station.
And I was at the end of every street with a long lens,
photographing him with his solicitor.
Eventually, he saw me
and walked over to me quite quickly over the road
and said, "Is that what you want? Is that what you want?"
And, er, he just gave me an awful look.
His solicitor led him away
and then went into the police station.
They were the last photographs of him.
Shipman was convinced he could get away with murder.
He had killed his patients when they were alone,
and as a doctor, there was nothing he couldn't explain away.
But it was this arrogance that the police planned to use against him.
POSTLES: When he turned up at the local police station,
I'd arranged for one of the Detective Inspectors
to book him in at the custody office.
He would then be handed over to more junior officers,
a Detective Sargent and a Detective Constable,
who would conduct the interviews.
I wanted to give the impression to him
that we were pampering to his ego,
then to wrong-foot him.
DENHAM: This man does not want to be spoken to by a DC and a DS.
He wants the top man there, Mr Postles interviewing him,
and he's not gonna get it.
Lured into a false sense of security,
detectives then hit Shipman with hard evidence.
An examination of his computer revealed he had tampered
with the medical records of patient Winifred Mellor,
creating a false history of heart disease to cover up her murder.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
He thought he could control it, but when things got bad
he didn't control it, cos he just shut up.
He just went silent.
It all became overwhelming for him, and he just stopped answering.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
He couldn't cope with it. His mind couldn't cope with it.
And when he was taken back to the cell, he broke down.
He pretty much collapsed.
Shipman was cornered.
But his breakdown meant the police had to stop questioning him.
They called in one of Britain's leading forensic psychiatrists.
BADCOCK: I was in Wakefield,
a short journey across the Pennines to Manchester.
Manchester Police phoned me because they were puzzled
by the behaviour and what it meant.
I was taken down to a room where he was and we sat down together.
I started as I often do by asking how he wished to be addressed.
And he said, "Call me Fred."
Bit of a Pandora moment, you know.
I haven't opened this box for 15 years. It's, er...
It's the, erm...
It's my report on Dr Shipman.
I recall there was a distinct air of tension and presence about him.
Mostly coming from a sense of suppressed paranoid hostility.
He sort of radiated this sense of hostility.
But there was no remorse, really, for what he'd done.
He was kind of hollowed out as a man. There was nothing inside.
So I was pretty convinced that he would never confess.
Dr Badcock declared Shipman was mentally fit,
and the police could resume questioning.
But Shipman refused to cooperate with the police in any way.
(OFFICER SPEAKING)
In a later interview,
Shipman even turned his back on detectives.
(DENHAM SPEAKING)
But the police didn't require Shipman's cooperation.
They had evidence to charge him with 15 counts of murder.
Dr Harold Shipman's trial began on 11th October 1999.
NEWSREADER 1: The 54-year-old GP arrived at court
hidden behind the blacked-out windows of a police van.
NEWSREADER 2: Dr Shipman is accused of murdering 15 women
between 1995 and 1998.
NEWSREADER 1: In the public gallery,
his wife, Primrose, listened intently
as the jury were told to rely only on the evidence
and not to speculate.
SHIRLEY: It was difficult sitting in court,
cos all it was, was a bombardment of evidence against him
and he didn't... he didn't answer to it.
Shirley Horsfall was sitting in a packed public gallery.
A few feet away was court artist, Priscilla Coleman.
Harold Shipman always seemed annoyed with everyone else.
He just looked very insulted that anyone would ever dream
that he would be the type of person to do that.
So he was angry and pretty fierce...
..in contrast to Primrose,
who always seem quite cheery, funnily enough.
I was crumbling at court, let alone Primrose.
I was upset because Fred was in court
and being charged with all these atrocities and...
But she was much better. More composed than I was.
I'm trying to sum her personality up. I mean, she was just
a big sort of bubbly,
outgoing, nothing fazed her and very robust.
Primrose was never arrested by the police,
and knew nothing about her husband's secret life as a serial killer.
I'd really love to think that she didn't know anything about it.
And I probably believe that she didn't.
The trial lasted 57 days.
Shipman was found guilty of 15 murders...
..including Kathleen Grundy and Winifred Mellor.
The police knew Shipman was responsible for many more.
The day after his conviction,
a public inquiry was launched in Manchester
to uncover the true scale of his crimes.
Shipman was moved between prisons and ended up at Wakefield.
Ray Rowett was the head of operations there,
and has prison reports from the time.
Well, the various statements from staff, from psychologists,
from different people...
"He can be both condescending and arrogant.
Obnoxious. Solitary." And the report further states
that Mr Shipman is in total denial of his crime.
For the first time, we can reveal that prison staff
feared Shipman was attempting
to carry on his killing spree behind bars.
Staff thought that prisoners were going to him
and he was holding clinics within the cell.
We had two prisoners who took ill and ended up in intensive care unit.
The inmates had overdosed on black market prescription drugs.
It looked as though they had been talking to Shipman.
We obviously then thought that
he was probably changing his modus operandi
and that he could probably have had a hand
in those two going to intensive care.
The two prisoners refused to cooperate
in an internal investigation.
And Shipman refused to cooperate in the ongoing public inquiry.
But the inquiry didn't need his help.
It investigated the deaths of nearly 900 of Shipman's patients
in Hyde and Todmorden,
and came to an astonishing conclusion.
The way in which Shipman could kill, face the relatives,
and walk away unsuspected
would have been dismissed as fanciful
if it had been described in a work of fiction.
The figure of 215 killings
may not represent the true total.
Shipman remained silent
and has never revealed why he murdered so many people.
But he still had one last killing to do before he was finished.
He worked in a prison textile shop,
and the textile shop, obviously, had remnants of cloth
and he was secreting remnants of which he made a noose.
He was found kneeling on the pipe
with a ligature round his neck, facing outwards.
He timed his suicide to best effect.
Shipman told me on numerous occasions
that when his pension was sorted out,
he would kill himself.
I distinctly remember him saying to me on one occasion,
"I'm a doctor. I know where to do it."
His death before retirement age
meant his wife received his full pension
and a £100,000 lump sum.
His whole purpose was to make sure
that his wife was looked after financially.
And that's exactly what happened.
So you talk about control -
you can't have no more control than that.
Shipman's suicide in January 2004
sparked more revelations about the number of people he had killed.
The day after his suicide, there was an article
in the newspaper.
It was like a resume of Dr Harold Shipman
and then I just thought, "I work with him."
I actually felt as if I had just run into a brick wall.
It just...floored me.
The mention of Pontefract General Infirmary
triggered a memory for Sandra Whitehead.
She realised she had worked there
with the newly qualified Dr Shipman in 1972.
He was always called Fred at the hospital, not Harold.
And he was always in a hurry.
His white coat was never buttoned up.
And the speed that he went down the corridor,
it was always flailing at the back of him like wings.
And I can remember these injection packs, many a time
he would just leave on the bedside locker.
For 30 years, Sandra had been haunted
by one particular night shift with Shipman.
One night, we had three deaths.
We just went from room to room, and the patient had died.
Just didn't seem any reason. They were ill,
but they didn't look on death's door.
It just seemed a high proportion of deaths out of a 32-bedded ward.
Just 18 years old,
Sandra didn't report her concerns about the deaths
or Dr Shipman.
I think I was just too young, too naive.
I didn't have the knowledge and experience
to maybe turn round and see senior management
and say, "I'm not happy about this."
The information that Sandra provided
led the public inquiry to investigate Shipman's time at Pontefract General.
It uncovered further victims.
It's now the 20th anniversary of Harold Shipman's arrest.
Most of the detectives who helped put him behind bars have retired.
But the investigation still casts a long shadow.
If you had to say which job, er, do you remember,
I think we would all agree the one job that we think about
the most is the Shipman job.
It was quite unique to have this mass-murdering doctor.
I don't think anybody even now can fully appreciate
how horrible this man was.
I tend to put things in boxes and shut the lid on them.
That's certainly a massive box for me where I had to put the lid on.
He's playing God. He was playing God with those lives.
The relatives trusted Dr Shipman.
They wouldn't have anything bad said about him. They trusted him.
And that trust had been totally and utterly obliterated by this man -
I wouldn't call a doctor, by this man.
You just think what an awful, evil man.
I can remember about nine months after he was convicted,
sat at home one night with the wife and I just broke down in tears.
And Joy said, "What's the matter?" I said,
"I'm just sick of all this death and destruction."
When he comes up, and he comes up regular, my Mrs says,
"Will we ever be free of this man?"
And I think the answer is no.
Jean and Joan's mum, Irene Berry,
was officially listed by the public inquiry
as having been unlawfully killed by Shipman.
JOAN: At the time that she died,
I mean, I was working abroad
and bringing up my son.
I didn't have as much time to spend with her as I would have now.
It's just sad that I can't use this time that I've got now with her.
JEAN: It sort of runs as a parallel
along the side of your life all the time.
Every now and again, you know, you bump into it.
And, you know, especially at times you're talking about it like this.
You can maybe go for months on end
and just carry on with your life and then something happens
and you bump into it again and...
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