1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,960 'Boarding schools are amongst the most influential institutions in Britain, 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,520 responsible for educating many of our politicians, judges and business leaders, 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,680 even three quarters of our prime ministers. 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,040 An estimated million people in the country boarded as children. 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,560 But it's only now, decades on, 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:29,320 that the true extent of sexual abuse in these schools is coming to light.' 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:34,240 I could smell... the abuse because abuse has a smell 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,080 that is a particular smell that you will only know 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,080 if you've been abused. 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:44,000 'At eight years old, I was assaulted by a paedophile teacher myself. 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,920 My name is Alex Renton. 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,640 I'm an investigative journalist and I'm trying to find out 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,760 how much the schools knew about what was going on behind their doors.' 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,080 "(PHONE RINGS)" 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:02,000 Hi there. I was very keen to talk to you about this character Pilgrim. 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,640 I've had people say, "Oh, come on, a little bit of fumbling around, 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,440 you can't blame your problems on that." 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,520 Well, that's poisonous claptrap. 19 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,080 It's like having a toxin inside you, isn't it? 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,120 'I meet survivors speaking openly for the first time 21 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,280 and ask what went wrong in so many of these institutions.' 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:28,120 There would've been a scandal, but having a duty of care, the responsible person was him. 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:33,480 'Were schools really willing to disregard children's safety to protect reputations? 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,320 And how did they get away with it?' 25 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:38,680 I think he kind of slipped justice. 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,720 He got off light. He got off light. It's just bloody scandalous, really. 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:48,040 'I meet the families still devastated by the impact of sexual abuse.' 28 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,560 If I could turn the clock back, I would never send him away. 29 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:59,040 'And most importantly, I want to know, are children in boarding schools today safe?' 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,560 In terms of the grooming, the school was complicit. 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,720 'I went away to board at the age of nine. The school was always talked about...' 32 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,560 'I cried all night that first night. But the abuse I...' 33 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,240 'As a child, I did think about running away from boarding school. But then I realised...' 34 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,560 'I want to cry, but Mummy said, "You'll love it here. It's what one does."' 35 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,680 'Boarding school. How, for centuries, Britain has educated its elite. 36 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,480 And in 1969, I was sent off to join their ranks. 37 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,680 Ashdown House, a famous boys' prep school in Sussex, 38 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,600 was expected to be the making of me. 39 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,800 My parents weren't to know, would never have imagined, 40 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,920 that in a matter of months I would be sexually abused by my teacher. 41 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,640 More than 40 years have passed, but I still remember the excitement 42 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:21,720 of my first day at Ashdown House, aged eight. 43 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,720 In reality, I think it was the end of my childhood.' 44 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:32,160 The first night was terrible. I remember being terrified in a very cold bed, 45 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,560 trying not to cry. 46 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:39,040 You lived permanently under the threat of violence. You could be beaten for anything, 47 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,440 for talking after lights out, for not doing very well in your Latin prep. 48 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,760 There was a permanent low-level state of fear. 49 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,400 'It was a brutal regime 50 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,120 under my headmaster, Billie Williamson. 51 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,280 You had to learn to live with it. Our new life. 52 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,880 But then there was the sexual abuse.' 53 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:04,040 Mr Keen was my maths and history teacher in that first year. 54 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:10,120 My memory of my sexual encounter with him is only once 55 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,320 and it was in the classroom where he usually taught 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,720 and I remember very clearly the physical feeling 57 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,120 of being pressed up against him, so the hairy tweed jacket, 58 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:28,800 while he had an arm round me and his other hand was going straight down the front of my corduroyshorts. 59 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,600 And... And I remember quite distinctly being given 60 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,680 the fruit gum afterwards, 61 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:40,360 which I knew already was what you got if you submitted to this. 62 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,000 But he was a very violent man, so I'm not sure what submission meant. 63 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,240 I don't think you could've said no. 64 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,040 Sorry. 65 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,120 OK. 66 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,960 It's funny how, you know, however many times you tell it... 67 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,480 'These schools instilled in us a rule of silence 68 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,360 which has kept many boarding school survivors quiet most of their lives. 69 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:23,000 But in 2013, a group of my former Ashdown House schoolmates spoke up. 70 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,400 They went to the police about a different teacher from later in the 70s, 71 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,080 Martin Haigh, who'd taught science. 72 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,080 I realised it was time to write an article about my own experience of abuse. 73 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,200 It opened the flood gates. 74 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,600 I was inundated with hundreds of e-mails from ex-boarders, 75 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,680 some of them women, but the vast majority men, 76 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,120 detailing abuse at schools up and down the country. 77 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,360 And they were very hard to read. 78 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,160 'You would be just lain across the teacher's lap and your pyjamas pulled down 79 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,640 and there would be some rubbing.' 80 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,680 'He'd mark our books with one hand whilst feeling our buttocks and testicles with the other.' 81 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,280 'I told the headmaster, in so many words, 82 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:09,400 because I didn't know the word, 83 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,680 that my teacher had raped me. 84 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,840 I never saw him again.' 85 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,720 'There were so many stories of abuse, 86 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,680 I started compiling a database of all the allegations. 87 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:29,200 And it soon became obvious the story wasn't just about rogue paedophile teachers. 88 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,720 Even more shocking were the schools themselves 89 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,640 and how they failed to deal with allegations of abuse, 90 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,200 and in some cases, allowed it to continue. 91 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,000 Of course, Ashdown House featured heavily, 92 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,320 and several people had written to me about that science teacher, Martin Haigh. 93 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,960 In March last year, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison 94 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,480 for indecent assault and gross indecency 95 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,880 against four Ashdown pupils in the 70s. 96 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,040 One of the men who gave evidence in court, 97 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,440 an ex-Ashdown pupil who was a few years below me, has agreed to meet. 98 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,680 He's asked to remain anonymous.' 99 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:14,000 When Mr Haigh was first sexually abusive to you, how did that play out? 100 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:19,120 The first time, erm, he took me to his room for a slippering. 101 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:24,360 Erm, he pulled my pants down, bent me over his bed and then nothing happened. 102 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:29,400 And he was just peering very close. I could feel his breath on me. 103 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:35,080 But it was more his dormitory activity that was really unsettling, as well. What was that? 104 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,680 His activity normally involved the entire dormitory and he would get everybody to take their pants down 105 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,520 and get an erection, quickly, 106 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:49,040 and then to test the power of the erection, he would get us to hang things off the end of our penises. 107 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,040 While we were doing this, he'd be sort of walking round peering closely 108 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,400 at our bits and pieces. 109 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,080 How did you and the other boys from your year 110 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,400 get round to going to the police? 111 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,360 I think, suddenly, I became, and others, very conscious 112 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,320 about the whole subject matter, cos it's obviously been in the news a lot, 113 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,560 and it stirred up a lot of emotion. 114 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,080 And then there was a sort of coming together of quite a few old Ashdonians 115 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,880 and I think then there was... there was a big motivation, at that stage, to do something about it. 116 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:27,240 'Martin Haigh said in court that two pupils did tell parents 117 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,080 and they complained to the man who'd taken on some aspects of the running of the school, 118 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,480 this man, Clive Williams. 119 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,800 It was decided no further action would be taken 120 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,120 provided Haigh left at the end of term. 121 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,880 We've spoken to one of those two pupils 122 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,200 who confirmed Martin Haigh's story 123 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,320 that his parents did complain to Clive Williams, 124 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,800 but added he'd also spoken to Clive Williams himself about Haigh's abuse.' 125 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,680 That's what makes me really angry. I feel I'm not so angry with my abuser, 126 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:05,120 I'm angry with the men in authority. Yeah, absolutely. There'll be all sorts of excuses to this, 127 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,720 reputation of the school, and I think there would've been a scandal. 128 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,000 But having a duty of care, the responsible person was him. 129 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,120 The police have told me that Mr Keen, who abused me and some other boys, as well, is dead. 130 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,720 Mm. We won't get a chance to face him in court. 131 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,400 I'd like to know how that feels. What's it like? 132 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,880 For me, seeing him in court, it was actually my first opportunity 133 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,440 to confront him properly, 134 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,920 and although I was terrified and I was very nervous, 135 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,120 as soon as I got onto the stand, emotionally just changed right there. 136 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,360 It's a shame we didn't do it 30 years ago. 137 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,120 'So, decades on, Haigh finally faced justice. 138 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,520 But because Ashdown allowed him to leave quietly, 139 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,120 he simply found another teaching job, 140 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,200 here at the state-run Chaucer School in Canterbury. 141 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,040 Now former Chaucer pupils are going to the police 142 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,440 with yet more allegations of abuse by Haigh. 143 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,280 The school is now closed, but I decided to contact Chaucer's former headmaster 144 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,720 and he soon sent me an e-mail.' 145 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,920 So, I've been told that the Chaucer School did get a reference from Ashdown House, 146 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,000 sent by the principal, for Martin Haigh. 147 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,040 Blimey. 148 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,480 It was an invitation for a school to take on board 149 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,120 a teacher who was known to... 150 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,600 ..be a serious threat... to children. 151 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,480 I'm... I find it quite upsetting. 152 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,560 'I know from my own experience 153 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:43,200 that Ashdown House had hushed up allegations before 154 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,440 because, as an eight-year-old, I told my mother what my teacher, Thomas Keen, had done to me, 155 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,080 and she took it up with Billie Williamson, 156 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,080 the headmaster in charge while I was there.' 157 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,360 She was persuaded 158 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,520 to take the easier course. 159 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,680 "Calm down. This is nonsense. 160 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:07,760 This doesn't happen at a lovely place like this and little boys make things up." 161 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,240 So she let it slide. To me, it's absolutely clear 162 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,400 that that sort of operation, conducted by the school authorities, 163 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,000 placating the mother, 164 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,520 sweeping the complaint under the carpet, 165 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,000 was going on again and again. 166 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,200 It seems extraordinary, but clearly avoiding scandal 167 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,480 was more important to them 168 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,720 than keeping children safe. 169 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,920 'We contacted the Cothill Trust, 170 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,480 an organisation which now owns Ashdown House. 171 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,560 They told us...' 172 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:00,560 'My old headmaster, Billie Williamson, is dead. 173 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:04,000 But Clive Williams, who later ran the school with him, 174 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:08,400 told us he has the deepest sympathy for victims, but...' 175 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,920 'But was Ashdown House simply an extreme example? 176 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,080 Just how common was this practice of disregarding accusations of abuse? 177 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,600 And how many more children did that put at risk?' 178 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,760 'As a child, I was assaulted by a paedophile teacher while at boarding school. 179 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,720 I've spent years investigating other cases of abuse in similar institutions, 180 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,920 stories of shame and suffering 181 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,480 pushed under the carpet for half a lifetime. 182 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,600 To think, we were meant to be the lucky ones. 183 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,720 For centuries, boarding school has been the hot house of Britain's ruling class, 184 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,720 a fast track to power and wealth.' 185 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:23,600 "Young hopefuls arrive with parents and relatives to carry on with that exhausting process of education." 186 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,520 'And a place where the aspirational middle classes 187 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,240 could buy status for their children.' 188 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,360 What's amazing is that boarding schools were run really with very little regulation. 189 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,920 They were often private companies and that allowed them to be run 190 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,960 in often very random and very... bizarre ways. 191 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,800 'Prep schools catered for children from around seven to 13, 192 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:54,200 designed to feed them into Britain's top public schools, like Eton and Harrow. 193 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,600 Some ex-pupils have happy memories. 194 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:01,480 Other recall years of abuse, psychological and physical. 195 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,320 All quickly learnt the system's most important lessons. 196 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:10,760 Never complain. Never show weakness. And never sneak. 197 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,120 And that stiff upper lip stayed in place for decades. 198 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,080 But then Britain's attitude changed.' 199 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,480 Lifting the lid on years of allegations. 200 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,280 Police confirm they questioned Sir Jimmy Savile... 201 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,680 ..downfall and disgrace of Max Clifford was completed today 202 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:33,520 with an eight-year jail sentence. ..abuse by the late Lib Dem MP Sir Cyril Smith... 203 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,600 'The news was dominated by a succession of high-profile abuse scandals, 204 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,160 the floodgates forced open with Jimmy Savile's death in 2011. 205 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:48,720 And as some of the most famous names in the worlds of television, show business and politics were exposed, 206 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,680 survivors of abuse in more everyday settings 207 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,480 realised that, at last, our stories would be taken more seriously. 208 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,960 Top schools from up and down the country, St Paul's in London, 209 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,960 Ampleforth College in Yorkshire, Gordonstoun in Scotland, 210 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,520 have since seen their names tarnished by abuse allegations. 211 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,760 Simon Bailey leads Operation Hydrant, 212 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,840 which coordinates police investigations into historical abuse.' 213 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:25,080 Abuse in schools is the most prolific form of institutional abuse 214 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,360 that officers around the country are investigating. 215 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,440 It is almost double that of any other form of institutional abuse. 216 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,160 And, of course, within a boarding school environment, children are sleeping there, 217 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,560 they're showering there once, twice a day, every day, 218 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,560 further opportunities are afforded. 219 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,960 'We've found shocking evidence of the scale of this abuse. 220 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,080 We made a freedom of information request to every police force in the UK 221 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,560 and those that responded told us, 222 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,160 since 2012, 425 people 223 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:05,120 have been accused of carrying out sexual attacks at boarding schools. 224 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,960 Not every force could provide further details, 225 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,920 but at least 160 people have been charged so far. 226 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,080 And at least 171 of the total 227 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,680 were accused of historical abuse. 228 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,560 Just over half the forces responded, 229 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,240 so the total figure is likely to be far higher. 230 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,640 So while many abusive teachers are finally facing justice, 231 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,000 the hundreds of e-mails I've been sent 232 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,240 show how rarely schools reported them to police at the time. 233 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,920 One abuse victim shared an incredible letter 234 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,040 that his headmaster had sent to his father about his abuser.' 235 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,360 It goes like this. 236 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,920 "He, the teacher, has done a first-class job with the choir 237 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,760 and has taken a tremendous interest, particularly in younger members. 238 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,680 Unfortunately, he has placed himself in a distinctly compromising situation. 239 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,200 For this reason, it has been my painful duty to ask him to leave. 240 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:07,800 Next term, I shall merely announce that Mr X had to leave for personal reasons. Yours sincerely." 241 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,480 Just astonishing. 242 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,760 It was almost as though this was in the manual of how to run a private boarding school. 243 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,800 That this is how you dealt with scandal and sexual abuses. 244 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,360 This is the system and it's about supporting the system, not protecting children. 245 00:17:26,360 --> 00:17:30,360 Just blatantly arrogant and stupid. 246 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,240 'As kids, these schools failed us in so many ways. 247 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,520 And often, we've kept their secrets. 248 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,080 It takes the average child eight years to open up about abuse. 249 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,840 Imagine the devastation when you've done that and you aren't believed. 250 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:57,560 In 1975, aged 13, Philip arrived here at Lucton School in Herefordshire, 251 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,000 a school for children aged five to 18. 252 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,640 His housemaster was this man, David Panter.' 253 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,360 Things with me started very early on in my first term. 254 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:12,960 Our housemaster took it upon himself 255 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,880 to inspect us in the showers. 256 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,680 I was told to bend over and he'd stick his fingers up your bum, 257 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,720 that was to start with, to see if it was clean. 258 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,840 And he used two or three fingers. It was really very painful. 259 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,720 Could you resist? You can't. What are you gonna do? 260 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,280 He would physically restrain you? Yeah, he did. 261 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,680 But that's not where the problem is. The problem is that it starts to become normal. 262 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,680 This is a mental rape. 263 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,520 I think people think that paedophiles force themselves onto children. 264 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,120 It's a lot worse than that. 265 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:51,560 Because they get you in the brain and they make you want them to do it. 266 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,640 And then it's, "Oh, well, why didn't you say anything?" 267 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,240 At what point did this start progressing? 268 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,200 I would say a few days before the end of term, the first term, 269 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,320 the first time he started masturbating at the same time, in the shower. 270 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,000 So he'd get in the shower with you. And that starts to be a bit weird. 271 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,560 'So Philip worked up the courage to tell the headmaster, 272 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,240 Keith Vivian, what had been happening.' 273 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,880 So you describe it in your own childish way. 274 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,280 And I remember this big hand coming down on my shoulder. 275 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,560 "Now, boy. Now, let's stop telling stories. 276 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,680 Run along to your class. We don't want to cause any trouble, now, dowe?" 277 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,840 And that's how he used to speak. And you get washed out of the door. 278 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,840 So that is actually what happened. 279 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,400 'Panter continued working at the school. 280 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,880 The following year, Philip moved into a dorm for older boys, 281 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,120 away from Panter's clutches. 282 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,440 But three years later, now a school prefect, 283 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,400 Philip was told that Panter was still abusing the younger children.' 284 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,080 This little kid came out of Panter's study 285 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,400 and he came out crying 286 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,880 and... he just said to me, "Panter's fucked me." 287 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,240 And I could smell... the abuse. 288 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,680 Because abuse has a smell. 289 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,680 It's a mixture of semen and faeces and urine and blood. 290 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,080 If you mix those things together, 291 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,960 that is a particular smell that you will only know if you've been abused. 292 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,680 'So Philip went to see Keith Vivian, 293 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,120 the same headmaster who had refused to believe him years before.' 294 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:43,320 I just said, "I'm not backing down this time. If you don't do something, I'm gonna tell everyone." 295 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,560 And... it was quite interesting 296 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,400 because nothing happened for quite a while... in this last year, 297 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,160 and this carried on and I went back again 298 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,680 with the other house prefect and he got angry with me. 299 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,480 Vivian? Yeah. Got very angry with me. He told me to go away and stop causing trouble. 300 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,280 'But the headmaster finally listened. 301 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,800 By the next day, Panter was gone.' 302 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,360 His wife and him just disappeared quietly away, 303 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:18,440 no news, no story, no police, no nothing. 304 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,160 And that, effectively, is my story at Lucton School. 305 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:29,920 'But, again, Panter's teaching career continued in the state sector. 306 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,960 We tracked down the headmaster who employed him at his next school. 307 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,200 He told us he would've received a reference from Lucton. 308 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,360 In 2016, Panter was jailed for nine years 309 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,960 for indecent assault and gross indecency 310 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,800 against seven Lucton pupils. 311 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,120 To avoid a contested trial, 312 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:53,280 he was only convicted for the crimes he admitted. 313 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,200 He pleaded not guilty to the allegations made by Philip, which he still denies, 314 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,960 as well as the allegations Philip says were make to him by the younger boy.' 315 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,760 So Panter being jailed is not actually the end of the story. 316 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,760 I've heard from Philip and others that the headmaster knew exactly what was going on. 317 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,800 When does he answer for his grotesque failure to not react 318 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,320 and to fail utterly to look after the safety of the children in his care? 319 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,960 'Lucton School told us...' 320 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,200 "..because the school closed in 1985 321 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,200 and a new school was later opened under a trust..." 322 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,000 'The headmaster, Keith Vivian, went on to become a vicar. 323 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,400 He told us he has no recollection of any complaint made by Philip 324 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,960 but does remember when prefects came to him 325 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,840 and says he asked Panter to leave the school premises immediately 326 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,480 and informed the school's governing body. 327 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,640 At no time would he not have acted immediately on such accusations 328 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,240 but it was not a police matter at that time. 329 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,080 Hearing these stories makes me think of my time at Ashdown House 330 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,080 and what became of my abuser, Thomas Keen. 331 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,400 He died in 2005. 332 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,720 I managed to track down a copy of his death certificate. 333 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,400 It said he was a retired teacher. 334 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,080 I'm worried he could've gone on abusing children for decades.' 335 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,240 I do feel a responsibility. We could easily have stopped him. 336 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,720 So we, collectively, put another generation of children at risk 337 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,360 from this violent... evil man. 338 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:51,200 I feel guilty about that. 339 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,120 'Of the hundreds of abuse stories that are in my database, 340 00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:01,880 some stand out because they echo my own experience. 341 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,400 I've heard from a number of men complaining about a teacher called George Pilgrim 342 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:12,040 who taught here at St Aubyn's School in East Sussex in the 1970s.' 343 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,640 So, the accounts are pretty much the same. 344 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:20,920 Mr Pilgrim was one of those teachers who liked to shove his hands into boys' shorts and grope them. 345 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,400 And it left some of them really very troubled. 346 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,720 It's pretty much what happened to me at my school, as well. 347 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:35,080 'I'm on my way to meet Richard, who was abused by Pilgrim a number of times.' 348 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,640 Richard has said that he doesn't want to discuss the details of what Pilgrim did to him on camera. 349 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,160 I completely empathise with that. 350 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,680 I mean, these are very private matters, 351 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,480 and the fact that they still hurt and corrode 352 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,800 all these years on is a sign of the depth of the impact. 353 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,920 'Pilgrim seemingly had no fear of getting caught. 354 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,320 One day he was abusing ten-year-old Richard in the classroom 355 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,040 when the headmaster, William Jervis, walked in.' 356 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,760 The headmaster was furious. Absolutely furious. 357 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,120 I'd never seen him like that. He was a strict, severe headmaster, 358 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,640 but I was surprised. 359 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,720 And Pilgrim... turned into a little boy himself 360 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,280 and he kind of walked off to his desk and cowered. 361 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,640 And made various excuses. 362 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,680 But it wasn't good enough. 363 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,560 'The incident was never mentioned to Richard again.' 364 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,600 There was nothing asked. There was no sort of attempt to find out 365 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,680 if anything else had happened to me or anyone else. 366 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,960 The school had such a lax, feeble way of dealing with it. 367 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,520 And the feelings of the children were not of any importance. 368 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,920 Well, apparently not, 369 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,320 because there was nothing. 370 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,960 What was its long-term effect on you? Well, I wouldn't recommend it 371 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,280 as a way of developing good self-esteem. Mm. 372 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,680 I've had people say, "Oh, come on, a little bit fumbling around, 373 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,880 you can't blame your problems on that." 374 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,800 Well, that's poisonous claptrap. Mm. 375 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,680 But, erm, it's... 376 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,000 like having a toxin inside you, isn't it? Mm. 377 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,000 It's bound to have an effect. 378 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,000 'But, as I've found before, 379 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,480 Pilgrim simply moved on from St Aubyn's to another private prepschool. 380 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,840 We found that school and it confirmed he'd arrived complete with a reference from St Aubyn's.' 381 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,080 "(PHONE RINGS)" 382 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:54,600 Hi there. It's Alex Renton here. I was very keen to talk to you about this character Pilgrim." 383 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,240 'The headmaster from the school Pilgrim went on to teach at 384 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,840 agreed to talk with me as long as he remained anonymous.' 385 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,920 So, that's extraordinary. 386 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,920 It's confirmation from the headmaster of the school that Pilgrim went to after St Aubyn's 387 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,960 that he'd arrived there, and within two months, they had to get rid of him. 388 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,560 He was abusing the children in the classroom. 389 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,960 'Pilgrim is dead now and never faced police charges. 390 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,720 It's the same pattern I'm seeing time and time again, 391 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,800 school getting rid of the teacher, doing nothing to stop them abusing somewhere else. 392 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,360 But for the children, entire lives can be contaminated. 393 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,160 Decades on, we found more evidence of abuse at St Aubyn's. 394 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,320 Same school, different teacher. 395 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,920 I've been contacted by the sister of another more recent St Aubyn's student. 396 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,640 His story shows the damage that can be done. 397 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,840 Gavin Purchas arrived there in 1987, aged eight. 398 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,480 He took his own life a couple of years ago 399 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,840 at 37 years old. 400 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,480 His sister, Rachel, has kept the suicide note he left behind.' 401 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,280 "Dear Mum. 402 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,360 You're probably the reason I have lasted so long and achieved so much. 403 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,760 But I am living a nightmare. Six breakdowns..." 404 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,200 'A popular, successful man, 405 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,040 his letter blamed the decision to end his life 406 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,560 on sexual abuse he said he'd been subjected to at school.' 407 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,360 "I will always be with you. Love your boy, Gavin." 408 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,600 'For most of his life, Gavin hadn't spoken of his alleged abuse. 409 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,920 It was only a few years before his death, 410 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,200 after struggling with depression, 411 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,880 that Gavin opened up to his family. 412 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,200 He told them that for two years at St Aubyn's, 413 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,920 he'd been sexually abused by this man, 414 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,480 his maths teacher, Geoffrey Nichols.' 415 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,680 It was under the guise of being given extra lessons and it happened twice a week. 416 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,080 In fact, he hadn't wanted to tell us. I think he thought he should 417 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,080 and afterwards he said he wished he hadn't said anything because he knew it would make us all feel bad 418 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,320 and he didn't want us to feel bad. 419 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,840 I wish that I had gone and taken him out of there. 420 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,200 'Not long after Gavin killed himself, 421 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,840 Rachel discovered that three years after Gavin had left St Aubyn's, 422 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,000 Nichols was jailed for sexually abusing two other boys at the school.' 423 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,960 I then wondered, "Did no one really think it was odd 424 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,240 that a teacher would take small boys to his room? 425 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800 Was it just something that people didn't... 426 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,040 They really didn't have any awareness of the kind of thing that would go on?" 427 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,920 'In the final year of his life, Gavin moved back home 428 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,680 so his mother could look after him.' 429 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,600 Hello, darling. Hi, Mum. How you doing? 430 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,800 Hi, Ridley! Come on, come in. In you come. 431 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,280 'His room is now a collection of his most precious belongings.' 432 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,200 I always felt he was going to... to recover. 433 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,560 I never gave up hope, not right until the very end. 434 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,160 And... 435 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,560 ..erm, I allowed him to be angry with me 436 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,560 because he did feel that, erm, 437 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,920 I... abandoned him when I put him in boarding school. 438 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,520 Erm, but I never abandoned him. 439 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,560 I will never abandon him. 440 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:54,480 It is one of the things a mother expects to do, is protect her children. 441 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,720 And... I didn't manage to do that. 442 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,160 'The pain of Gavin's death is still raw, 443 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,880 but just as intense is the family's anger at his alleged abuser, 444 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,400 now long out of prison.' 445 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,720 I feel that he murdered my son. 446 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,160 But I don't suppose he looks at it that way. 447 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,840 If I could turn the clock back, I would never send him away. 448 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:30,200 The anger at what has happened is not just at my putting him in a school, 449 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,680 but it is to put him in a school where he wasn't safe 450 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,520 and this man could do these things to him with impunity. 451 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,800 'We contacted Geoffrey Nichols 452 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,840 and he categorically denied Gavin's allegations. 453 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,720 St Aubyn's closed in 2013, 454 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,080 but the Cothill Trust, which owns the school, told us...' 455 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,280 'But these failures weren't only at school level. 456 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,640 I've discovered this goes a lot higher, 457 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,920 to the very organisations that were meant to ensure high standards.' 458 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,720 'In my research into boarding schools, 459 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,800 I've seen many instances where schools failed to act on allegations of abuse. 460 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,080 But among the hundreds of cases, 461 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,520 one stood out. 462 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:44,440 It was one of the country's top prep schools, and here the abuser wasn't just a lowly teacher, 463 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,200 it was the owner and headmaster, Robin Lindsay, 464 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,680 whose abuse spanned three decades, 465 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,760 from the 1970s until the end of the 1990s. 466 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,480 The school was Sherborne Prep in Dorset.' 467 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,880 Sherborne Prep is a fascinating case, 468 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,440 and not least because this man, dismissed as a harmless eccentric, 469 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,840 turns out to have been a serious abuser while running the school. 470 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,800 And for a child there, this is the authority figure. There are no governors, no trustees. 471 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,720 So where does a child go? 472 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,160 'Eventually, concerns over his behaviour became so extreme, 473 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,120 the Department for Education held a tribunal in 1998. 474 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:30,280 Its ruling called Lindsay "a fixated paedophile" and he was barred from teaching. 475 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,920 Just months from retiring anyway, 476 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,200 he never faced police charges.' 477 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,920 So many questions about this place. 478 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,720 How did he manage to go on running this school, 479 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,080 looking after children for so long, when so many questions were raised about him? 480 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,680 'And what was it like to be one of those children? 481 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:58,520 Today, three Sherborne Prep survivors from the 70s are meeting up for the very first time 482 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,600 to compare memories of their old headmaster.' 483 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,520 I always remember the wash between the buttocks thing in the showers. 484 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,120 Did you have that? When he used to stand there? 485 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,200 He watched all of us shower every day. Yes. 486 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,800 I can remember showers would sometimes, sort of, happen 487 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,360 two, three times a day. 488 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,200 You know, there'd be... And he would always be there. 489 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,680 My littlest brother was there in the 80s 490 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,080 when he used to feel the genitals of the rugby team at the time. 491 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,240 He jumped into bed. He was going crazy. 492 00:34:31,240 --> 00:34:33,600 If you got injured, or any risk of it, 493 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,560 he would be there rubbing embrocation 494 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:43,160 onto any part of your body. There was the one time when I ended up on his own bed in hisbedroom, 495 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,160 stripped. 496 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,920 And to this day, I've got this image of him with flaring nostrils, 497 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,280 staring at my groin, rubbing it. 498 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,360 And I was just frozen there in fear. 499 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,840 And I get that image every day. 500 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,360 'For Gilo, his worst memories are what happened to him 501 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,280 as a ten-year-old after lights out.' 502 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,400 He'd come and stand in the middle of the dorm... Mm. 503 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,600 ..for long, five, what felt like five, ten minutes, 504 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,120 to check that everybody was asleep. 505 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,840 You could tell that he was around at night because of the fug that kind of... 506 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,440 The smell of revolting tobacco. 507 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,800 Oh, God. You were aware of his presence. 508 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:30,320 And the back rub... thing would start. 509 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,120 And I still remember very, very powerfully and distinctly 510 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,320 when that back rub became him masturbating over me. 511 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,440 I didn't understand what was going on 512 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,920 but I knew that I was being held down with one hand. 513 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,480 That he told me not to turn around. 514 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,160 And that became a pattern for the next year. 515 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,040 Did any of you at the time attempt to tell your parents? 516 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:01,800 I did try and tell my mother, and she just said, "Oh, no, it can't possibly be. No, no, no." 517 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,240 And that was it. She just dismissed it? Yeah. Dismissed. It wasn't happening. 518 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:09,360 'Incredibly, it was another two decades 519 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,600 before the independent schools tribunal into Sherborne Prep 520 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:17,040 finally forced Lindsay out in 1998.' 521 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,360 You must feel angry on behalf of those children who came after you. 522 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,480 I feel sad that for three decades that went unchecked. 523 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:33,080 When he was retired, there was 700 people in this service in the abbey 524 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,600 gave him, er, three cheers. 525 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,000 Even today, there are people who believe that he's maligned. 526 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,480 I think he kind of slipped justice... 527 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,240 ..really. He got off light. You know, he got off light. 528 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,680 It's just bloody scandalous, really. 529 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,200 'We've discovered that the opportunity to stop Lindsay 530 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,600 first arose 14 years before the authorities acted. 531 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,040 In 1985, a whistle-blowing teacher from Sherborne Prep 532 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,640 went to IAPS, the Association of Prep Schools. 533 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,760 A school's membership of this umbrella group was meant to be a guarantee of highstandards. 534 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:16,760 They investigated and said he'd behaved foolishly and indiscreetly, 535 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,480 but according to the later tribunal ruling, 536 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,320 did not take strong or effective action against him. 537 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,920 It seems shockingly complacent. 538 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,320 So I took a closer look at who sat on the IAPS board back then 539 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,800 and I realised two of the headmasters on there were already known to me, 540 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,680 including its chairman, Robin Peverett.' 541 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,920 They were absolutely the wrong men to be looking into abuse at a prep school. 542 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,880 There's Robin Peverett, later convicted of sexually abusing his own pupils. 543 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,160 And there's Robin Lindsay himself. 544 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,280 It's extraordinary. 545 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,880 'Despite the serious allegations against him, 546 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,160 Lindsay remained on the IAPS board for another two years. 547 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,600 And it was another eight years before inspectors again visited the school, 548 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,800 this time from Dorset Social Services. 549 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:15,400 Our freedom of information request revealed a report with a catalogue of paedophilic behaviour. 550 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,640 Children complaining of Lindsay's supervised showers, 551 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,160 his interest in watching their naked bodies, 552 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,840 close hugs with the stench of cigar smoke. 553 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,280 Most incredibly was the account of one boy 554 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,200 who claimed he was sexually molested by an intruder 555 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,120 wearing a wig and stinking of cigars. 556 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,040 The headmaster told him it must have been a dream. 557 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,200 Robin Lindsay died in 2016. 558 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,400 We've managed to track down one of the few people who can explain 559 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,680 why he never faced police charges. 560 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,480 Jill Donnell was the Chief Superintendent at Dorset Police 561 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,800 and she oversaw the investigation into him in 1993.' 562 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,360 I remember this case over the many, many cases, 563 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,960 over the many, many years I worked in the police, 564 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,680 for the challenges that we had getting the evidence that's necessary. 565 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,040 And in the case that we're talking about, 566 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,520 the main place that evidence is gonna come from is from children. 567 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:23,560 And what was the reaction of the parents when you went to try and talk to these children? 568 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,840 I'm sad to say that the majority that I spoke to were very hesitant 569 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,040 and some of them very clear they were not going to let us talk to the children. 570 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:38,640 And it was said to me on more than one occasion that the most important thing for theparents 571 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,400 was that their children went to the required public school 572 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:48,560 and that anything that was done to endanger that they weren't terribly supportive of at all. 573 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,600 So their academic careers were more important than their safety. 574 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,760 Yes. Their priority was about the future of their children 575 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,200 and not what may or may not have been happening to them at that time. 576 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,000 'Sherborne Preparatory School told us they have sympathy for any victims 577 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,000 and said it takes the welfare of current and former pupils 578 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,920 very seriously. 579 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,160 But as they bought the school from Lindsay in 1998, 580 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,640 it is now an entirely different 581 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,880 legal, financial and governance entity. 582 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,040 It is therefore unable to comment on any of the issues raised. 583 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,400 On their failure to take effective action against Lindsay, 584 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,760 IAPS, the Independent Association of Prep Schools, 585 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,360 simply told us they are appalled by the events of the past. 586 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,760 Today, the education, care and welfare of young people 587 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,120 is their primary concern and they demand the most exacting standards 588 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,240 of themselves and their schools. 589 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,400 As a journalist, and as a survivor, 590 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,720 I know the lifelong damage abuse can cause. 591 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:57,680 But as an adult, I've never looked an offender in the eyes 592 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,000 and asked them, "Why?" 593 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,560 Today I'm on my way to meet James, 594 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,920 a former prep school teacher and a paedophile.' 595 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,480 The teacher who sexually assaulted me is dead, so I won't get the chance to ask the questions I want to ask. 596 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,800 But there are universal questions I need to ask 597 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,880 for me and for the thousands of people like me who were abused. 598 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,720 'James has served time in prison for sexual assaults on children in the 70s and 80s. 599 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,400 His views are shocking but shed light on the culture 600 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,920 that allowed sexual abuse to become almost accepted.' 601 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:43,480 I was sexually abused by not one master but by five when I was at prep school. 602 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,320 It's never done me any harm. 603 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:51,520 They made my life so much more pleasant... in various ways 604 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,680 that I accepted it. 605 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,520 I was getting something from them that I wasn't getting from my parents. 606 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:03,160 Er, Dinky toys, cigarette cards, whole sets, 607 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,080 the love and affection which I was deprived of at home. 608 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,760 When you got the job, were background checks done on you? 609 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,560 None whatsoever. No. And that was normal at the time? Yes. Yeah. 610 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,040 And when you arrived there, 611 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,280 were you aware that there was... 612 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:27,200 unorthodox relationships between the teachers and the boys? 613 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,560 At least two of my predecessors had been dismissed for... 614 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,800 ..intimacy with the boys, shall we say. 615 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,120 And then after about the first year, 616 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,520 erm, I learned that the deputy headmaster, 617 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,960 erm, was also intimately involved with a number of boys. 618 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,600 And when you say "intimate relationship," what does that mean? 619 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,960 It's a simple case of a master 620 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,400 literally falling in love with an attractive boy. 621 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,800 'I find this very hard to hear 622 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,360 and I'm particularly horrified to discover he believes 623 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,880 his first victim had actually wanted to be abused.' 624 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:14,120 It was the boy that instigated the actual, erm, intimacy. 625 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,040 He approached me one day 626 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,560 and... suggested that I did something to him. 627 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,840 Simple as that. And that's not unusual. 628 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,520 That was to perform a sexual act? Yes. Yeah. 629 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:36,280 The initial boy we've been speaking about was ten years old, 11 years old, I think. 630 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,200 He was, well, he was nearly 12. He was nearly 12. Yeah. 631 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:44,040 Erm, do you feel... he gave consent? 632 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,160 Yes. 633 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,320 How can one know that with someone that age? 634 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,480 (LAUGHS) Good question. 635 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,760 A 12-year-old boy 636 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,520 is just as capable of giving consent 637 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,880 as any other age. 638 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,680 'For a survivor like me, it's upsetting to hear a paedophile 639 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,360 convince himself that his victim can be complicit. 640 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,840 It is one of the cruellest and most damaging aspects of abuse.' 641 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,960 Do you think what you've described 642 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,440 is still going on in boarding schools today? 643 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,120 My guess is that, yes, it is. 644 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,960 Because it is traditional. 645 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,280 I know you won't like that word. 646 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,120 But it is traditional. It has been going on for generations. 647 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,840 'Our evidence suggests it would be naive to believe boarding schools 648 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,840 no longer hold appeal for predatory paedophiles. 649 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,520 Our freedom of information request to every police force 650 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,680 revealed that since 2012, 651 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,600 at least 125 people have been accused by children 652 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,640 of recent sex attacks at boarding schools. 653 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,800 And there are at least 31 ongoing investigations. 654 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,400 So it's vital schools today take their duty to protect children seriously. 655 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,600 But many say there's still confusion 656 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,400 over what schools must do if they suspect abuse. 657 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,320 The government tells schools they should report abuse allegations to their local authority. 658 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:22,760 So we also made an FOI request to every local authority in England and Wales 659 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,200 and found that since 2012, 660 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,600 404 allegations of sexual abuse 661 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,320 were reported by boarding schools. 662 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,640 But there were glaring differences in reporting figures. 663 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,640 One council, responsible for 19 boarding schools, 664 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,240 had received 60 complaints. 665 00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,280 Another, with 20, just two. 666 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,040 Perhaps that's down to one startling fact, 667 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:53,080 that schools in the UK are still not legally obliged to tell the authorities. 668 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,720 Caldicott School in Buckinghamshire 669 00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:03,640 saw several of its former teachers convicted for abuse in the 1970s. 670 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,400 Tom Perry was the first complainant in the scandal 671 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,760 and now campaigns for the reporting of abuse to be made legally mandatory.' 672 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,600 Do you think things are different at boarding schools nowadays? 673 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,280 Erm, I don't see how they can be. 674 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,760 In simple terms, when I was abused, and when you were abused, 675 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,440 there was no requirement to report abuse. Today, there is no requirement to report abuse. 676 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,760 If you can spot a difference in there somewhere, let me know. 677 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,000 But the current rules, the statutory guidance, 678 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:41,520 say you should report suspicion of a known or suspected abuse. Yes. Is that not enough? 679 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:46,600 Yeah, but look, I should lose weight and drink less. There's no-one to hold me to account for it. 680 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,280 It's exactly the same in child protection in these settings. The whole thing is absurd. 681 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,440 'I showed Tom the results of our FOI request. 682 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,200 Could the lack of a clear legal requirement 683 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,640 explain the vastly different reporting rates to the local authorities?' 684 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,800 It doesn't add up. It could be lack of referrals. 685 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,760 It could be schools saying, "No, no, no. We'll deal with this in-house." 686 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:16,480 'Of course, all schools are expected to have sufficient safeguarding arrangements 687 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,800 to prevent abuse in the first place. 688 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,440 These are checked in regular inspections. 689 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,520 We've looked at the most recent inspection report 690 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,760 for every boarding school in England. 691 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:33,040 Depending on the rating system used by each different inspectorate, 692 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:38,760 when it came to safeguarding, one in ten schools either failed to meet national standards, 693 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,280 or else didn't meet the requirements needed 694 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,680 to be given a rating of "good." 695 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,920 So what is the industry today doing to protect children? 696 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,480 Are cases being referred to the authorities? 697 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,520 And why have so few schools publicly apologised to survivors? 698 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:06,080 Today I'm meeting with the Boarding Schools Association, which represents 90 percent of boarding schools.' 699 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:13,240 Can you, hand on your heart, say the grotesque failures and abuses 700 00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:17,560 that we saw really not very long ago are impossible today? 701 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,480 What I can say is that everyone who works in boarding today 702 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:26,440 is professional, caring and doing everything they can 703 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,200 to make safeguarding their number one priority. 704 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,600 There's no doubt that there was a period 705 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:38,080 where some people at some schools experienced some appalling abuse. And it's absolutely shocking. 706 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,720 But in my experience, there isn't any school out there 707 00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:45,320 which doesn't want to listen to victims 708 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,360 and, where it can, as quickly as possible say sorry. 709 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:55,880 I'm not sure about that. There seems to be another colder-hearted consideration comingin, 710 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,120 which is that schools don't want to apologise 711 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,960 for fear of having to pay compensation. 712 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,480 I don't know individual cases or the individual schools. 713 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,760 And you're obviously in touch with survivors who are telling you a differentthing. 714 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:17,280 Compensation arrangements would be a matter between a particular survivor and a particular school 715 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,600 and we couldn't comment on that. 716 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,360 'Last year, the BSA finally issued rules 717 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,920 telling its members they must report any allegations of abuse, 718 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,240 but say it's time for the government to make that law.' 719 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,160 It's the only system which can properly work. 720 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:38,080 Because why would you not have a system where people are required to reportabuse? 721 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,160 So remove any doubt, remove any ambiguity, 722 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:47,560 and let's have mandatory reporting, and that ultimately contributes to making children safer. 723 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,840 'Other leading organisations, like the NSPCC, 724 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,000 IAPS and the Independent Schools' Council, 725 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,040 have told us they too support mandatory reporting for boarding schools. 726 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,480 We asked the government about this. They declined an interview 727 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,880 but said that in 2016, they held a public consultation about whether it should be introduced 728 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,680 and they will publish its finding in due course. 729 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:17,920 But how long can we wait while abuse and grooming still goes on in schools? 730 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,320 I've been contacted by Matthew, who only left school this decade. 731 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:32,240 As a teenager, he boarded at one of Britain's most prestigious institutions 732 00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:36,880 and was sexually assaulted by a teaching assistant away from school premises.' 733 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,120 I went back to school the next term and I told him 734 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,480 that I didn't want him to contact me. 735 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,840 Like a boomerang, he came back into my life. 736 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,840 He told me that if I told anyone about this case, 737 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,360 they would just say that I was gay to everyone in the school. 738 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,680 And he just got increasingly controlling 739 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,320 over being in aspects of my life. 740 00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,640 And what kind of things was he doing? 741 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,520 So, he was taking me out to restaurants. 742 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,280 He got to know my friends through, kind of, social media. 743 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,960 I had over 120 mutual friends with him on Facebook 744 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,960 by the time I'd left the school. 745 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,960 There were instances where he got me to go back to his, like, flat. 746 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,680 And I was just there by myself. 747 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,120 So he would invite you back to his room at the school. 748 00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,920 I mean, was that normal for teachers at the school? Could they do that to children? 749 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,120 Not on a one-on-one basis. 750 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:33,960 The rules were, for some reason, didn't seem to apply to him. 751 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,280 How obvious was his behaviour? 752 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,280 Retrospectively, it seems really obvious. 753 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,600 'His abuser's behaviour clearly broke the school's own safeguarding policies. 754 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,720 But his actions seem to have gone unnoticed. 755 00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:51,840 They even promoted the man to become a teacher.' 756 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,680 Did you ever think of telling anyone at the school? 757 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,000 There genuinely was not anyone who was suitable at the school 758 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,320 for me to tell. First of all, 759 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,400 I wasn't sure about the procedure that would be involved. 760 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,080 I didn't know whether I would have to leave the school. 761 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,720 I didn't know whether teachers would believe me. 762 00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:15,400 'Matthew went to the police a couple of years after he left the school. 763 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,560 His abuser has been jailed.' 764 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,920 Do you blame the school for what happened? 765 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,000 In terms of the incident of assault, I don't blame the school. 766 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,920 But in terms of the grooming, the school was complicit. 767 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,160 'Matthew's school was inspected six months after his teacher was arrested. 768 00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,280 It was given a rating of "excellent" for safeguarding. 769 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,040 So parents and pupils would have no way of knowing 770 00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:41,000 there had been allegations of a breach at the school.' 771 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,960 People say that these things could never happen in a school today. Do you agree with that? 772 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,840 People are very happy to pat themselves on the back 773 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,960 when this is labelled as historic or it wasn't under this leadership 774 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:56,080 and things have changed. 775 00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,880 I think that mentality diverts attention away 776 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:04,960 from thinking dynamically about how abuse can exist in the 21st-century. 777 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:14,840 'It's been four years since I first wrote about my time at Ashdown House. 778 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:19,920 Today I was meant to meet with its owners to hear how things have changed. 779 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,640 In the end, they decided against the interview, 780 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,320 but said I could still visit my old school.' 781 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,280 Coming back to Ashdown doesn't feel good. 782 00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:36,720 I spent five of the formative, most miserable years of my life here. 783 00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:41,360 And it's somewhere that still appears in nightmares. 784 00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,120 'My school, like so many others, 785 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,320 has never formally apologised for what happened to us under their care, 786 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,680 keen to distance themselves from these abuses of the past. 787 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,720 Perhaps that is part of the problem. 788 00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:03,600 Because if we never truly acknowledge our mistakes, 789 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,640 how can we learn from them?' 790 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:10,840 Since I first wrote about the abuse at this school and many others, 791 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,560 I've heard so many stories of misery, of real horror. 792 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,680 And it was chiefly because they didn't listen to me, 793 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,600 to my friends, to all those schoolchildren then. 794 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:28,160 And I really hope now that this story is historical, that children are being listened to today. 795 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,760 Because if they're not, then these same crimes 796 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,520 can be committed with impunity. 797 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,320 We have to listen to children. It's the only answer. 798 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,720 subtitles by Deluxe