1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:11,200 This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting from the start and some strong language. 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,760 How charged is vocabulary here? 3 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:22,880 In other words, how much mess can I get myself into 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,320 making this programme if I use the wrong word? 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:28,920 A terrible mess. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,600 Words mean everything over here. 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,240 Even the term Northern Ireland, people object to. 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,640 It's the North of Ireland. 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,520 So, terminology is vital 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,000 and you won't be the first and I'm sure you won't be the last 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,040 very well-meaning, liberal, 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,080 broad-minded journalist from that beautiful city of London to come 13 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,760 to Ireland and get into trouble - it means you're doing your job. 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,520 This is the story of a dramatic and deadly series of events 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,640 that took place at two funerals in Belfast in March 1988. 16 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,840 EXPLOSIONS 17 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,600 I just thought it was disgraceful and despicable. 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,640 Sickened. Sickened by it. 19 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,720 It was barbaric. 20 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,840 It was just the worst excesses of republican violence. 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,240 I think people were looking down the barrel and seeing Armageddon. 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,320 30 years on, 23 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:35,840 I want to understand one of the darkest chapters in the history of 24 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:37,840 the conflict in Northern Ireland, 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,600 and find out what it means to us today. 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,120 GUNSHOTS 27 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,160 In the 1980s, Northern Ireland was divided. 28 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:10,360 Protestants and Catholics had been locked in conflict for over 20 years... 29 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,560 ..with republicans fighting for a United Ireland 30 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,960 and trying to force the British troops to leave. 31 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,440 It's only now, 32 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,440 30 years on, that people from all sides who were intimately connected 33 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,760 to the events of March 1988 have agreed to talk 34 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,400 and have given me their unique perspectives on what took place. 35 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,160 The chain of events began on the 6th of March when the British Army 36 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,480 shot dead three members of the IRA who were on a mission in Gibraltar. 37 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,160 What would the IRA have been doing in Gibraltar? 38 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,400 Why weren't they just fighting at home? OK... 39 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,760 Well, the IRA considered it... 40 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,480 ..opportune to hit and hurt the British 41 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,960 wherever it was possible to do so. 42 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:15,200 So, if there was a British soldier shot on the streets of Belfast 43 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,480 it would get a small... 44 00:04:21,280 --> 00:04:23,520 ..you know, postage stamp 45 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,200 in the corner of the Daily Mirror. 46 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:31,360 But if the IRA were to be able to kill British soldiers 47 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:36,320 outside of the North of Ireland, 48 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,000 that would be an added coup. 49 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,200 On the afternoon of the 6th of March, three members of the IRA, 50 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,240 two men and one woman, were shot dead by the SAS 51 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,280 on the streets of Gibraltar. 52 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,760 Did you know any of the Gibraltar three? 53 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,280 I knew Mairead. 54 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:09,000 Her family were local shopkeepers, 55 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,200 they were very well known. 56 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,800 I didn't know Sean Savage. I knew Dan McCann. 57 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,200 Dan's family also were shopkeepers, 58 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,880 they kept a butcher shop on the main Falls Road. 59 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,560 The three families were highly respected members 60 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,240 of the local community. 61 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,880 I've known the Savage family for about 30 years now. 62 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,520 The father was a barman. 63 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,040 The mother was a stitcher. 64 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,680 There is nothing about the Savage family that I could pluck out of 65 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,120 the air right now and say, that made them extraordinary. 66 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,280 Nothing. 67 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,000 They are the most ordinary people, 68 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:12,960 in the most positive sense of the word, 69 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,280 who found themselves in the most extraordinary times. 70 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,360 A gentle paramilitary? 71 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,040 Well, we never use the term paramilitary. 72 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,720 What term did you use? What? 73 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,000 What term did you use? 74 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,120 He's a volunteer. A volunteer? 75 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,920 But that sounds like you're working in the local charity shop. 76 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,400 It does, but that's the terminology used. 77 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,440 You know? 78 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,680 I had no sympathy for them whatsoever. 79 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,360 They were going out there to commit mass murder and they died. 80 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,960 So, when something like that happens and there's three terrorists 81 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:02,160 who're shot dead, there's no sympathy. 82 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,640 Were we happy? Yeah, probably. 83 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,280 If you're going out and carrying out military attacks 84 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:08,720 against the British Army 85 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,520 and the unionist community, as well, 86 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,280 you have to expect to get killed. 87 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:17,200 So, if you're out planting bombs and you're involved in armed conflict, 88 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:18,560 that's what happens. 89 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,200 You're not fighting each other with feather dusters, you know? 90 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,160 The republican community in Northern Ireland was appalled 91 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:29,800 by the manner of the deaths. 92 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,120 We were horrified at the deaths. Yeah. 93 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,360 In complete shock, and horrified. 94 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,000 And we believed that, you know, it was kind of a shoot to kill. 95 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,200 So... 96 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,240 Yeah, we just looked at it as three innocent people who were shot dead. 97 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,400 The Gibraltar Three were unarmed when they were killed. 98 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,720 But Mairead's car was later found across the border in Spain 99 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,160 containing 132lb of explosives. 100 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,480 The plan had been to bomb a parade 101 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,480 of the Royal Anglian Regiment in the centre of Gibraltar two days later. 102 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,240 You know, Dan was shot five times, twice in the back of the head. 103 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,480 Mairead was shot four times. 104 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,720 Sean Savage was shot 16 times. 105 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,160 It was an execution. 106 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,520 Eight days after the shootings, 107 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,560 the bodies of the Gibraltar Three were brought home. 108 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,640 Unable to land in Belfast, 109 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,680 where airport staff refused to handle their bodies, 110 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:05,880 the coffins were flown into Dublin. 111 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,000 From Dublin, the coffins were driven 100 miles north, 112 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,000 across the border to Belfast. 113 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,840 Was it a difficult decision as funeral directors 114 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,600 to agree to get involved in that funeral? 115 00:09:54,880 --> 00:10:00,120 No, not really. Our perspective as funeral directors is that 116 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,160 you're putting the political side aside 117 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,880 and you're there under the instructions of the family, 118 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,320 the relatives and that you're carrying out their wishes. 119 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:20,480 The police operation that day - simply the intelligence 120 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,360 we received - indicated that it was going to be huge numbers 121 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,320 of people on the street. 122 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:32,600 Through the Catholic Church we had contact with the families. 123 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,960 The indication was that they just wanted the remains back 124 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,680 so my task was to ensure the remains got back to their families 125 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:42,440 in a dignified fashion. 126 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,240 As it hit the border, the whole atmosphere changed. 127 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,360 There was a massive RUC presence 128 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,160 and they started to dictate the terms for travelling north. 129 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,240 Whenever the police Land Rovers dropped away and left the hearses exposed, 130 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,720 where we got pelted with bricks and bottles 131 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,640 and anything they could get their hands on, which was a bit scary. 132 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,080 The car that I was in, 133 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,320 the side window was broken and a brick came in and hit me on the shoulder 134 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,760 and bounced off and hit his brother-in-law, 135 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:33,960 split his head open. 136 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,080 So it was a very tense time between there 137 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,400 and when we got to just outside Lisburn, 138 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,800 when basically, the RUC hijacked the coffins 139 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,200 and we were told to take another route. 140 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,840 The republicans, they use very particular vocabulary. 141 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,040 In their words, they say the RUC hijacked the bodies 142 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,640 and returned them to their families. 143 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,520 What do you say to that, Cyril? 144 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,080 Absolutely not. 145 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,760 The mission that I was on 146 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,920 was to ensure that the remains got back to the respective homes 147 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,000 in a dignified fashion and that's what happened. 148 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,760 How would you describe your politics? 149 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,080 And what about your wife? 150 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,960 What did that involve for both of you? 151 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,080 And would you have hidden weapons? 152 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,000 Yeah. Where would you hide them? 153 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,480 Stupid places, when we thought about it - under mattresses. 154 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:08,800 What about this sofa? 155 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,240 Oh, no, never, no. 156 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,280 No bullets in the cushions? 157 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Oh, there was. So, your wife, 158 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,080 would she unzip the back of the cushion and put the bullets inside? 159 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,840 Yeah. 160 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,840 Can't have been very comfortable, Stephen. 161 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,120 HE CHUCKLES 162 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,680 On the night the bodies of the Gibraltar Three arrived 163 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,880 back in Belfast, Stephen's 32-year-old son Kevin, 164 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,880 a member of the IRA, was out patrolling the neighbourhood 165 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,480 when he was shot dead by the British Army. 166 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:45,840 There was suspicion that the British Army would be basically... 167 00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:52,080 ..trying to cause trouble in and around the... 168 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,560 ..the family homes and Kevin was out trying to do something about that. 169 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,320 So, Kevin was patrolling around near Sean Savage's house? 170 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,680 Yeah. Would he have been trying to shoot a member of the army? 171 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,640 So he wasn't just trying to protect Sean Savage's house? 172 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,680 Would he have taken a pot at a soldier, wherever he would have seen one? 173 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,840 Oh, aye. No hesitation. 174 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,240 Did you feel that he had bravely given his life for the cause? 175 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:41,920 Yes, yes. 176 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,400 Was that any consolation for losing him? 177 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:45,800 Not really. 178 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,360 On Tuesday the 15th of March, 179 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,400 the day before the funeral of the Gibraltar Three, 180 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,600 there was a heavy police presence around the homes of their families. 181 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,240 And, amongst republicans, 182 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,680 a sense of nervousness about how the funeral would be policed. 183 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,440 For several years prior to the funeral of the Gibraltar Three, 184 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,120 all of our funerals had been attacked. 185 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,840 There were scenes in Derry where - unseemly scenes - where a coffin was knocked over and almost 186 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,600 split open when the RUC baton charged the mourners. 187 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,880 For years we were used to our funerals being attacked 188 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,120 and indeed we had no reason to believe otherwise 189 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,120 that this wouldn't be the case that morning. 190 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:44,360 Over the years, republican funerals had become symbolic events, 191 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,160 used by the IRA as a show of strength. 192 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:53,520 Gunmen in balaclavas would salute the dead with a volley of shots, 193 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,760 invariably sparking conflict with the police. 194 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,880 Shoot, shoot, shoot! 195 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,840 So we're moving on now to Wednesday the 16th of March, 196 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,000 which was the funeral itself. 197 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,840 You need fortification for this, do you, Cyril? 198 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,080 The funeral itself, yeah. 199 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:18,960 What was your role on that day? 200 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,120 Well, I had drawn up a plan 201 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,320 which was a very detailed plan 202 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,600 involving police and military, and that plan had been approved. 203 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,640 On the evening of the previous day to the funeral, 204 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,520 I was summoned to a meeting with my superior 205 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,360 and was told that there was a change of plan. 206 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,760 At the last minute, we were told we weren't deploying that day, 207 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,040 there'd been an agreement made so therefore there was not going to be 208 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:54,840 police on the ground. 209 00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:00,000 Basically, what happened was the Catholic Church were in contact with 210 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,880 our headquarters and gave an undertaking that there would be no 211 00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:09,920 paramilitary trappings and there would be nothing of that nature. 212 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,440 And as a quid pro quo to that, the Chief Constable decided 213 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,000 we would adopt a standoff approach. 214 00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:22,960 Were you surprised by that decision? 215 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,800 I was shocked. 216 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,640 That was anathema in policing terms, 217 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,720 is that you simply do not do that, 218 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,320 but that was my instruction, and that was the policy for the day. 219 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,040 Had the RUC ever been pulled from an IRA funeral previously? 220 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,240 Not to my knowledge. 221 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,680 On Wednesday the 16th of March, the Gibraltar Three - Dan McCann, 222 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,000 Sean Savage, and Mairead Farrell - were buried in a triple funeral. 223 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,800 I remember that republicans were 224 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,440 very surprised, almost shocked, in fact, 225 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,320 that the British Army and the RUC did stay clear of the funerals. 226 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,240 Pleasantly surprised or suspicious? 227 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,560 Well, suspicious. 228 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:39,600 No police, no military, no armoured cars, no jeeps, no checkpoints. 229 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,960 This is amazing, this is the way it should be. 230 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,640 Little did I know what was in wait. 231 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:55,320 This triple republican funeral was a major event in West Belfast 232 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,520 with thousands of people lining the route to pay their respects. 233 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,640 We had lowered Mairead Farrell's coffin down into the grave 234 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,720 and we were getting ready to lower the second. 235 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,360 We were lowering Dan's coffin down into the republican plot 236 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:39,920 and there was a loud boom. 237 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,720 EXPLOSIONS 238 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,360 Jesus! 239 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,600 And then people were sort of in a panic. 240 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,720 Get down, everybody, get down! 241 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,280 SCREAMING 242 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,800 I was confused, at first I thought actually we were being mortar bombed 243 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,360 from across the M1, which leads into a loyalist area, so we ducked down. 244 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:07,840 There were more explosions. 245 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,520 EXPLOSIONS 246 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,080 We thought, 247 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,400 were some of the graves booby-trapped? 248 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,440 Was there a timing device in some of the graves? 249 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,880 And you're trying to take families away from the graves, 250 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,160 because no-one had a clue at that stage what was happening. 251 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,400 I took the microphone and tried my best to restore calm. 252 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,640 Can people please stay calm? Can people stay where they are? 253 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,320 I seen this fellow, 254 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,520 ended up, Michael Stone, having this handgun in his hand. 255 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,120 GUNSHOTS 256 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,240 Some of the people screaming, "There he is, there he is" and... 257 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,600 ..you know, some of the people running down towards him. 258 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,200 I got fairly close to Stone. 259 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,600 And he turned around and he fired a couple shots at me 260 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,200 but he wasn't... 261 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,200 It must've been the adrenaline and stuff like that, 262 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,680 he wasn't able to hit me. 263 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,440 And then he pulled out a grenade and he threw it in my general direction. 264 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,960 As it exploded, 265 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,520 there was shrapnel fired all over the place and it was actually 266 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,400 underneath the water whenever it exploded 267 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,560 which meant, as the fragments... 268 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:27,920 you know, they sizzled. 269 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:55,720 They were running after a man who was throwing grenades at them. 270 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,800 He was shooting at them and they 271 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,600 were still were able to apprehend him on the motorway, and I thought, 272 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,640 if that was a British soldier doing that, 273 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,720 he'd probably be awarded the Victoria Cross for bravery. 274 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,040 I felt an impact on my... 275 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,480 inner thigh and I realised that I was injured. 276 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,760 My dad and the limousine drivers 277 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,360 just started getting all the injured 278 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,000 and the wounded into the limousine. 279 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,520 The limousines then were used for ferrying 280 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,360 the wounded and the injured down to the hospital. 281 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,080 They actually put me into the hearse. 282 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,880 They took me in, they put me under, 283 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,720 give me anaesthetic and operated, took the shrapnel out, 284 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,760 and gave me a lot of stitches. 285 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,080 Meanwhile, Michael Stone had reached the motorway, 286 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,640 where the crowd of mourners caught up with him 287 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,520 and successfully overpowered him. 288 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:07,640 When did you first become aware that the funeral was being attacked? 289 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,360 Well, we had the benefit of heli-telly - 290 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:17,600 the army had a helicopter in the air and we had this small little monitor 291 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,040 that was about ten inches square. 292 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,280 People were diving down 293 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,920 and people were starting to run 294 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,240 and you could hear these sort of muffled explosions. 295 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,400 Then I directed officers from Grosvenor Road 296 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,240 to approach the motorway. 297 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,160 So, we jumped into the Land Rover 298 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,200 and headed as quickly as we could down 299 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,160 towards where the explosion was coming from. 300 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:46,880 We actually got up 301 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,720 as they were manhandling who I now know to be Michael Stone 302 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,360 from the back of a car. 303 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,640 My first concern with explosions was, have you any grenades? 304 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,120 Cos what I didn't want to do was put my hand in his pocket and pull out 305 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:03,080 a grenade and kill me or kill everybody else. 306 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,560 After the commotions and stuff in Milltown, 307 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:22,600 I'll always remember walking in and the phone had rang... 308 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,520 ..and this guy saying, 309 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,600 "We missed you today but we'll get you the next time." 310 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,800 My dad had come in and he was in 311 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,040 a very bad state of shock... 312 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,200 ..and he just broke down. 313 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,960 My dad actually ended up taking a nervous breakdown 314 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,360 over the whole incident. 315 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,600 He went out of work for well over a year and even trying to get him 316 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,640 motivated to come out on funerals and stuff with us after that was... 317 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,520 it was very hard. 318 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,480 Michael Stone, a seasoned loyalist paramilitary, 319 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,960 later claimed that his ambition had been 320 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,840 to assassinate republican leaders Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness 321 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,040 and Danny Morrison. 322 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,080 In fact, he attacked the mourners indiscriminately, 323 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,760 injuring 60 people and killing three of the young men 324 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,600 who chased him through the cemetery. 325 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,240 Of the three dead, only one - Kevin Brady - 326 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,120 happened to be a member of the IRA. 327 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:50,720 He worked for the republicans and was Danny Morrison's driver. 328 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:56,680 To be in his company 329 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,640 was quite a feeling. He always brought joy into your life, 330 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,840 he could be quite funny. 331 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,840 He could be quite droll, as well, and basically I loved him. 332 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,120 And so... 333 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,720 I'm sorry. 334 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,880 The gun went through his stomach and out his back and hit an artery. 335 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,080 Just... 336 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,480 And that was it. If it had been quarter of an inch either way, 337 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,600 he would have been OK. 338 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:39,880 Heartbreaking. 339 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,000 Somebody that you saw a few hours before... 340 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,560 ..just lying cold on a table. 341 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,920 The other two victims were married men with children 342 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,960 and had no political involvement. 343 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,600 John Murray's siblings have never spoken publicly before, 344 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,560 having lived with the stigma 345 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,320 of their brother dying at an IRA funeral. 346 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,240 He was at that funeral simply because 347 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,280 he had a right to be there. 348 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,800 It was wrong what happened in Gibraltar 349 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,560 but it wasn't a big deal - in Ireland we all go to funerals. 350 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,320 My husband called to work to tell me that John was injured. 351 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,760 He says, "Mary, he's dead." 352 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,480 So the next thing was, "We'll go and see him, where is he?" 353 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,600 SIREN BLARES 354 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:39,920 When we got to the hospital... 355 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,160 ..and my mother and sisters went in to identify him... 356 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,760 ..and we just couldn't believe... 357 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,040 John's gone. 358 00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:00,160 My mummy was there and she said, "Peter, there he is." 359 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,040 Fella I loved... a lovely man, wasn't he? 360 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,960 And she says, "Be brave, Peter, 361 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,120 "there's John" and I just held John and I held my mummy, and 362 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,880 that's what I recall of that day. 363 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,680 When her husband, Thomas McErlean, was killed at the funeral, 364 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,320 Anna was 19 and pregnant with their third child. 365 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,320 That's the clothes Thomas was wearing when he was killed. 366 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,000 You can see where they cut his jumper off him. 367 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,200 And where he was shot in the trunk of the neck... 368 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,160 There wasn't much blood 369 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,680 and I think people in the graveyard just thought he had fainted, 370 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,520 because had haemorrhaged inside. 371 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,440 I can still smell him off them. 372 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,280 Can you? Yeah. 373 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,680 It's been a comfort. Almost. 374 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:33,680 SHE SIGHS 375 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,960 As far as I was concerned 376 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,560 and people, from a loyalist concern, 377 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,120 if you went to an IRA funeral, you were a republican. 378 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,160 There was all aspects of being involved in republicanism, you know, 379 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,120 you were a gunman, you were hiding guns, 380 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,320 you were driving cars, you were raising funds, 381 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,080 you were a supporter, you were involved in the republican movement, 382 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,920 so anybody that was at a funeral of three IRA volunteers 383 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,480 that was killed in military action in Gibraltar, 384 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,240 they were supporters of the republican movement. 385 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,640 So as far as we were concerned within the loyalist community, 386 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,880 everybody at that funeral was a target. 387 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,560 For some people, 388 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,000 the fact that the security forces stayed away from a funeral 389 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,240 on the very day that Michael Stone launched his attack 390 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,560 was just too much of a coincidence. 391 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,160 To me, it has never, ever been explained how 392 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,640 on the first day in five years 393 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,240 that the police and the army decide not to monitor an IRA funeral 394 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,920 that that's the day that 395 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,600 Michael Stone, out of the blue, decides to attack. 396 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,800 So, in my mind and the mind of most people in our community, 397 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,240 there was collusion. 398 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,280 I had noticed when I arrived at the plot that 399 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,200 there was a white van parked on the M1 motorway, 400 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,000 which I just presumed was 401 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,640 the British Army... 402 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,800 ..or the RUC. 403 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,400 The significance of the white van seen on the motorway 404 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,960 remains a contentious issue. 405 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,240 Many Catholics made the assumption it was a police vehicle 406 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,880 and was part of Michael Stone's getaway plan. 407 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,600 Well, there was a van sitting on the M1, 408 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,040 which he was trying to get down to, 409 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,040 so I think there was collusion there. 410 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,880 I believe the British Army 411 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,720 were behind it. 412 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,760 So, you think somehow the British state 413 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,240 were involved in giving Michael Stone a free run? 414 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,680 Yep. 415 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,680 There's no way that a police van was going to get Stone away. 416 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,800 Never would there have been any sort of arrangement 417 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,840 to lift a terrorist away. That's a nonsense. 418 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,320 The white van could have been there to assist his escape. 419 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,640 It didn't necessarily have to be 420 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,080 British Army or an RUC white van. 421 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,080 It could have been a loyalist 422 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,200 friend of his or a member of 423 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,640 a loyalist paramilitary organisation, etc. 424 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,640 People have their own interpretation of it. 425 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,480 Do you believe that Michael Stone was acting alone? 426 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,080 Yes. Yes, he was acting alone, he told me he was acting alone. 427 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,680 He got an Ulsterbus there that day to Milltown 428 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,480 and he walked in and that was that. 429 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,920 And he took it upon himself to do what he was doing, 430 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,720 you know, as far as we were concerned in the loyalist community, 431 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:46,960 there was no collusion. 432 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,160 Most people seen Michael Stone as a hero. 433 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,520 Simply because the fact of the matter is that 434 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,800 he took the war to the IRA. 435 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,240 In celebration? 436 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:08,960 Yeah, oh, aye. 437 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,600 You know, I heard the songs being 438 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,880 sang and, you know, within our community 439 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,240 and obviously there was murals went up celebrating what he did, 440 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,840 you know, cos at the end of the day, he was a hero, you know? 441 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,360 # Knew when to run 442 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,320 # But he never just walked away 443 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,520 # And the fenians started chasing him 444 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,200 # There was 20 dozen more 445 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,320 # Michael stopped, had a wee look 446 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,840 # And threw a couple more... # 447 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,520 In the aftermath of the funeral, 448 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,920 the police and army sat together to watch news footage of the event. 449 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,240 Unlike the British Army, the police were recruited locally 450 00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:11,120 and were largely drawn from the Protestant population. 451 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,240 For police officers to carry on in the manner that they did - 452 00:34:17,240 --> 00:34:20,920 every time one of the grenades blew up 453 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,520 there was cheers going up. 454 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,440 You thought you were at a football match. 455 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,560 It was, "Yeah! Yeah! Pity he didn't get more of them!" 456 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,040 The reaction, for me, I thought was totally disgusting. 457 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,280 Certainly nobody I ever knew 458 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,360 had any praise for him, you know... 459 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,640 ..that's all I can say, really. 460 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,280 Nobody was running about going, "Ya-ho." 461 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,840 Just 72 hours after the funeral of the Gibraltar Three, 462 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,920 republicans prepared for another funeral. 463 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,240 The funeral of IRA volunteer Kevin Brady, 464 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,000 who'd been killed by Michael Stone three days earlier, 465 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,800 took place on Saturday the 19th of March. 466 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,360 Were you in charge of police operations that day? 467 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:38,520 I was. It was a similar arrangement to the previous funerals - 468 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,040 that we wouldn't closely police the event. 469 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,760 And again I was in Andersonstown Police Station with 470 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,360 the same two officers, 471 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,200 my two superiors were with me. 472 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,840 There was a sense of nervousness. 473 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,360 We were on exactly the same funeral route leaving St Agnes's Chapel 474 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,560 going down to the republican plots. 475 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:08,040 This was the exact same route that we had followed three days earlier, 476 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,120 so it was quite fraught. 477 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,760 I was on the main Andersonstown Road as part of the funeral cortege 478 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,480 and we passed a section of the road which had shops on either side. 479 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,600 And a car came very, very fast to my left, 480 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,840 up the road, in front of the shop. 481 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,160 This car had come round the bend, 482 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,400 had ignored the stewards who were simply, 483 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,440 you know, asking people to go into the side... 484 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,320 If the car had simply just 485 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,480 moved in to the side of the road as people did, 486 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,000 then nothing would have happened. 487 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,280 As the car approached, 488 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,720 Kevin Brady's sister Ann was carrying his coffin 489 00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:04,720 at the front of the cortege. 490 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,280 We just thought, "Oh, my God, it's happening again, 491 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,240 "the loyalists have come again to attack another funeral." 492 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,480 The heli-telly started to focus in. 493 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,040 We picked up a surge in the crowd 494 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,080 and realised then that there was a car - 495 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,200 it seemed to be a white or silver car - 496 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,920 had stopped and the crowd were gathered around the car. 497 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,480 Under attack, 498 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,560 one of the men in the car produced a pistol 499 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,240 and fired a single warning shot into the air. 500 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,040 GUNSHOT 501 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,400 SCREAMING 502 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,920 The crowd sort of burst back 503 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,760 and it looked to us as if there had been a shot, 504 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,160 or something, maybe fired. 505 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:06,080 But the crowd then very quickly re-gathered and started thumping 506 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,320 and banging at the car. 507 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,600 The crowd reacted because they 508 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,640 thought they were under attack again. 509 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,520 Here you had a car pulling up, 510 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,400 they produced weapons. So automatically in the aftermath of 511 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,000 the Michael Stone situation, they thought, "Here we go again." 512 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,680 An ordinary Catholic woman, who happened to be walking 513 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,560 along the Andersonstown Road 514 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,200 that day, found herself caught up in the funeral procession. 515 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,280 She told her daughter what she witnessed. 516 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,520 Also in the crowd was a republican from Glasgow who had travelled 517 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,200 to Belfast for the funeral. 518 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,720 Everybody's running for the car 519 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:13,800 so your adrenaline, 520 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,800 you're running beside them, you're running towards that car. 521 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,560 So you ran towards the car, too? 522 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:20,880 Yeah. 523 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:26,000 Yep. We were, like, right on the, sort of, outside of the crowd. 524 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,800 Seen all the crowd round about the car 525 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,040 and that's when we seen the guys getting dragged out 526 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,640 and taken into Casement. 527 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,680 The two men - who subsequently turned out to be British soldiers - 528 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:43,200 were taken into Casement Park, a walled sports ground just opposite. 529 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,440 Nuala will only speak anonymously about what happened next, 530 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,480 as her mother still fears reprisals from republicans. 531 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,640 They brought one over the railings, 532 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,040 and his leg was caught - if I remember right - 533 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,880 his leg was caught in the railings. Yeah. 534 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,640 The injured men were put in a black taxi and driven away by the IRA. 535 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:04,000 What do you feel about the fact that the corporals weren't rescued, Noel? 536 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,000 We were very, very annoyed. 537 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,120 Police-wise, we were raging, is the right term, 538 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,160 because immediately straightaway 539 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,360 people were saying we could've been there, we could've saved them. 540 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,080 We didn't take any action initially 541 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,360 because we had no idea what was going on 542 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,760 and of course I was operating under the strict policy 543 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,760 that we would not deploy. 544 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,120 As soon as we realised something was wrong, we decided we needed to go, 545 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,120 we needed to get out there. 546 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,320 So you defied orders to go? 547 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,560 We did. 548 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,680 One of the soldiers had carried ID which mentioned Hereford 549 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,560 and Hereford is the headquarters of the SAS, 550 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,040 so the crowd and the IRA that came on the scene 551 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,600 thought that they had got two SAS men. 552 00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,520 The IRA had confused Herford - 553 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,280 a town in Germany, where the British Army had a base - 554 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,800 with Hereford, the headquarters of the SAS in Britain. 555 00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:11,920 They believed they had captured two members of the same elite unit 556 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,280 who had killed the Gibraltar Three only 13 days before. 557 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,160 One guy came out the left side 558 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,880 and sort of crawled a wee bit that way. 559 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,720 The door opened and there was a guy come out the driver's side and tried 560 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:47,040 taking a run, stumbled. 561 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,360 And I just seen your man... 562 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,120 basically, senior guys shooting him. 563 00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,760 I actually seen it. 564 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:00,880 You saw them being shot? 565 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,120 Yeah. 566 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,800 But the fellow had a balaclava on him, you couldn't tell who he was. 567 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,200 It wasn't nice to watch. 568 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:19,960 You said it wasn't nice to watch? 569 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,200 No. Do you think it was right that they were killed? 570 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,200 Yeah. They shouldn't have been there. 571 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,880 It's hard to say things like that but that's what it was. 572 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,440 When you got to the scene, what did you see, Cyril? 573 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,080 I'll not forget it until my dying day - 574 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,160 they were stripped down to their pants, 575 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:02,360 both men, and the steam was actually rising from their bodies 576 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,280 and we weren't actually sure whether they actually were dead 577 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,120 but we couldn't find any pulse. 578 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:23,040 How did you become aware that these men were army? 579 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,120 One of the officers I deployed from Woodburn Police Station, 580 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:30,560 an inspector, 581 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,360 came over to me and pointed out 582 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,960 that the car was... their car was burnt out. 583 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,160 When I went over and looked at the car, it was very clear to me that 584 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,640 although it was burnt out, there was armoured plating 585 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,240 in the backrest of the seats 586 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:48,480 and indeed, if I remember rightly, 587 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,120 there was maybe a serial number. 588 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,600 At this point, it became known to the security forces 589 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,160 that the two men were British soldiers 590 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,480 who had been travelling in an unmarked vehicle. 591 00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:06,040 The guys displayed magnificent restraint. 592 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,240 They had Browning pistols, 593 00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:12,200 14 rounds in the magazine, or 11, whatever. 594 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,680 I think the reason why the guys were so restrained 595 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,360 is because the army and the police, 596 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,360 it's hammered into you from the minute you start training, 597 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,000 do not use your firearm. 598 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:24,800 So what do you do? 599 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,280 What would they have had to do? 600 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,640 Would they have shot their way out? 601 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,160 Cos they would have ended up getting prosecuted by the British Army. 602 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,960 So they were in a no-win situation. 603 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,920 No family deserve to have to sit and watch... 604 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,560 They would have seen that on the TV... 605 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,040 First, they wouldn't have known who that was 606 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,280 but anybody that had sons in the army that day would have 607 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,160 been thinking, "Is that my boy? 608 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,560 "I hope to God it's not." 609 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,600 The two men were David Howes and Derek Wood, 610 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,760 who turned out to be corporals 611 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,080 in the British Army. 612 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,000 They were in the Signals Corps, a unit responsible for communications. 613 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,000 David Howes had only been in 614 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,920 Northern Ireland for a week 615 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,600 and was travelling with his more experienced colleague. 616 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:29,400 The press reacted in horror to their deaths. 617 00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:35,120 For many, it seemed that the conflict in Northern Ireland 618 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,760 had reached the depths of depravity. 619 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,640 In 31 years of policing... 620 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,200 ..there've been many things that one has been shocked about in different 621 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,920 parts of the province. That is probably one of the worst. 622 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,120 It was just the worst excesses of republican violence. 623 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,680 When you have young IRA volunteers all over this city, 624 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,400 all over the North and, as Gibraltar showed, 625 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,680 clearly across any countries that they could get access to, 626 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,080 where they're out endeavouring to... 627 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,360 You know, and that's what they're trying to do, 628 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,560 they're out trying to kill British soldiers, 629 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,360 they're out trying to attack them. 630 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,240 You know, it wouldn't have made much sense for IRA volunteers to think, 631 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:39,720 "Well, OK, we'll let these two go." 632 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,040 So it was more like a mob lynching? 633 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:11,160 So, just to clarify, if they had been shot cleanly, you wouldn't 634 00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:12,680 feel uncomfortable with that? 635 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,480 Can you explain the impact that it's had on you as a family 636 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,280 that the corporals were killed at Kevin's funeral? 637 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,720 Well... we... 638 00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:35,480 Kevin to us was a hero. 639 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,280 He ran after Michael Stone and that's how we looked at Kevin 640 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,400 and that's how we were honouring Kevin. 641 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,960 And then this happened and then because of it 642 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:50,200 we were sort of demonised and in the media we were actually called 643 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,200 depraved and despicable. 644 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,720 And people were saying "savages". Savages, you know. 645 00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:02,000 And I thought, "We're not depraved." 646 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,800 We're brothers and sisters and mothers and aunts and uncles. 647 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,960 So, there was a lot of shame and blame. 648 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,000 Blame as if it was our fault. 649 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,360 Do you think that a crowd of loyalist mourners would have reacted 650 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,760 if the boot had been on the other foot? 651 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,600 If two republicans were, you know, come into a loyalist funeral, 652 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,520 they'd have got the same. 653 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,960 You're very even-handed, David, because actually in the media 654 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,760 what was suggested at the time, that it was evidence 655 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,800 that the nationalist community were 656 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,720 a kind of horribly savage community, 657 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:46,960 but actually you're saying it would have been the same? 658 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:48,520 No, it would have been the same. 659 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,120 It would have been the same. 660 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:55,200 You know, that's part of the media, they were demonising republicans, 661 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,920 but, you know, I have to be honest, 662 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,080 we were equally as vicious as republicans were 663 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,760 and that's just the way it was. 664 00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:18,200 I remember watching a wildlife programme and it was hyenas 665 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,240 and they'd got their kill and they were around their kill 666 00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,240 and they were just ripping this apart 667 00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,520 and for some reason, that situation, 668 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,080 these two guys getting dragged out of that car, came right in my head. 669 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,240 I just thought it was such a horrendous thing to happen. 670 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,280 Sometimes I have flashbacks. 671 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,960 I can't be surrounded by people, 672 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,400 I can't have people touching me or being aggressive towards me. 673 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,920 I get this fear that I'm going to be abducted 674 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,120 and this is why I'm going to see a counsellor. 675 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,920 I'm still seeing them at the minute. 676 00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,320 That incident sticks with me 677 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,200 and it always will until the day I die. 678 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,360 Does it still haunt you now, what you saw? 679 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:12,800 Aye, I still see the guys. 680 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,960 And I say prayers for people at night 681 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,360 and sometimes I say prayers for they two guys, aye, 682 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,840 because it doesn't matter who they are, 683 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,160 they didn't deserve what they got. 684 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,600 The killings made their mark 685 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,960 on ordinary Catholics in West Belfast, too. 686 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,640 What the corporals were doing there that day remains a mystery. 687 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,360 According to statements made by the army at the time, 688 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,280 they were driving through Belfast 689 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,520 from one army barracks to another at the time of their deaths. 690 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:40,200 The safe route would have been 691 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,840 to drive due south on the M1 motorway. 692 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,680 Instead the corporals drove down 693 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,880 the Andersonstown Road, straight towards the funeral cortege. 694 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,640 And the first thing we always said, and I always remember it, thinking, 695 00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,800 "What the fuck were they doing there?" 696 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,640 How the hell did they end up in that funeral? 697 00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,720 That's the first thing that went through our heads. 698 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:05,360 Is that because all of you would 699 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,440 have known that that area was out of bounds? 700 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,480 Everybody, the wee men on the moon would have known that 701 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,200 that was out of bounds and for the life of me, only these two guys... 702 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,520 And I still look back at that to this day, thinking, 703 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,720 there was no need for what happened, 704 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:24,040 but why the hell they ended up there in the first place, 705 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:25,800 I'll never know. 706 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,280 How would they have known which routes were off-limits? 707 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:36,240 They would have been compelled to find out what areas were off-limits 708 00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:38,280 so that's the first check. The second check 709 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,560 would have been when they were leaving the base, 710 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,120 they should have been warned. 711 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,880 A lot of areas in that territory 712 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,560 would have been, from time to time, out of bounds, 713 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,880 so that would have been like putting your shirt on in the morning, 714 00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,080 is that you always check and plan your route. 715 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,440 The army were very good at laying routes. 716 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,480 You'd get a route to go from A to B and that's the route you take, 717 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,920 so they know if something happens, where to find you was that route. 718 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,000 And I think it was a case of just the guys went wandering. 719 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,880 The British have told lie after lie after lie - 720 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,920 "Poor guys were in there by mistake." 721 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,480 No danger they were there by mistake. 722 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,360 They couldn't have got in there by mistake. 723 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,760 Everybody knew that funeral was on. 724 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,560 They would have known. 725 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,840 The British Army, biggest intelligence in the world 726 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:36,800 and they don't know there's a funeral 727 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,360 and the two guys drive in by mistake - don't think so. 728 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,200 Well, they were undoubtedly undercover, 729 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:49,160 they weren't in British Army uniform and they weren't, 730 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:54,400 they didn't have the standard GI haircut, if you will. You know? 731 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,840 They had long hair and 732 00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,080 moustaches and stuff. Just... 733 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:01,920 Whatever they were at... 734 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,040 And who knows? Only their commanders would be able to answer that, but 735 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,240 I don't believe that they were up to any good. 736 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:20,080 They were plainclothes, I don't know if they were undercover or not, 737 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,320 I don't think anyone knows. But people find it strange. 738 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,720 What were two plainclothes British soldiers 739 00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:28,800 doing to drive up the Andersonstown Road into a funeral cortege? 740 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,000 So, to this day it is inexplicable. 741 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,200 Someone suggested maybe the driver of the car, who was familiar with 742 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,120 the terrain, thought he would show off 743 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,400 but I don't want to do a disservice to that man's memory 744 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,400 or his family. I don't know what the explanation is. 745 00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:48,520 But it was... 746 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,920 It was disastrous for all concerned. 747 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,520 I think it was you, Sean, that coined the phrase 748 00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,560 the "Battle Of The Narratives." Yeah. 749 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,040 And that battle does seem to continue to this day. 750 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,240 It's still ongoing, because 751 00:56:16,240 --> 00:56:19,200 someone once made the statement, and I think they were right - 752 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,040 it's a continuation of the conflict by other means. 753 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,240 You know? So the fighting's over but the fighting over the narrative 754 00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,440 continues? Different type of battle. 755 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,160 So it's a battle around narratives 756 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,160 and people want to justify past actions. 757 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,440 I don't think loyalists and unionists 758 00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,720 are very good at propaganda. 759 00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:47,640 I think the republican movement are very, very good at propaganda. 760 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,000 Whose account is the true one? 761 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,640 Well, history will judge that 762 00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:00,720 and I think there's a big attempt 763 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,280 by republicans, in particular, to rewrite history. 764 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,680 It's almost like the police were the terrorists and 765 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,480 the IRA were these wee men, just freedom fighters. 766 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:14,640 Who's going to be believed? 767 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:18,920 Whoever shouts the loudest. 768 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,960 I'm giving you a perspective which is undoubtedly a republican 769 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,240 perspective. I don't say otherwise. 770 00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,280 If you talk to a loyalist, they'll give you a loyalist perspective. 771 00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,720 If you talk to state forces, they will give you their perspective. 772 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,920 So who do we believe? Who should we believe, Sean? 773 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:38,800 You don't believe anyone. 774 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,000 You listen to all perspectives. 775 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,080 Listen to them all and try and understand them. 776 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,520 So, it's not a question of saying "That is the right perspective" - 777 00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:50,560 none of them are right on their own merits. 778 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,440 They're all right on their own merits, if you know what I mean. 779 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,480 So, people need to understand what made people tick, 780 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,480 but the important thing is, having said that, 781 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,400 we all have to have a common 782 00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,480 resolve that another generation doesn't have to go through what 783 00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,000 our generation had to go through. 784 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,360 Whether you're a British soldier from Leeds or London, 785 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,320 or a republican from Ballymurphy or Clonard, 786 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:18,960 that's the important thing.