1 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,079 [Rowe] Zhytomyr Prison, Ukraine. 2 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,400 Feared throughout Eastern Europe. 3 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,720 Home to rapists, murderers, 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,800 and one of the most brutal and prolific serial killers of all time. 5 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,119 Is it true you killed more than 34 women and children? 6 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,240 The prison is now so broke and understaffed, 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,080 many of its inmates are left to roam. 8 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,400 My name is Raphael Rowe. 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,960 I was convicted in the UK of a murder I didn't commit 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,720 and sentenced to life with no parole. 11 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,120 It took me 12 long years to clear my name. 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,200 Now, I'm traveling the globe to discover what life is really like 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,280 inside some of the world's toughest prisons. 14 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:17,880 Ukraine, Eastern Europe. 15 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:18,880 [siren wailing] 16 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:22,440 I'm on my way to one of the most dreaded prisons on the continent, 17 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,200 Zhytomyr. 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:31,080 A vast, foreboding complex, it's operating in a nation at a war. 19 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:42,040 In 2014, Ukraine's eastern provinces came under siege from Russian-backed forces. 20 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,280 [gunfire] 21 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:47,240 And the shock waves have rippled through the country, 22 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:50,400 devastating the economy, with crime rates soaring. 23 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,760 Normally, that would end in packed prisons. 24 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,680 But Ukraine is bankrupt. 25 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:06,120 In a bid to save money, the authorities have cut sentences for petty crimes, 26 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,880 with Zhytomyr releasing all but 600 of its deadliest convicts. 27 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:18,520 I'm going to spend a week here to find out how the prison can run when it's broke. 28 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,040 Whoever you are and wherever you come from, 29 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,640 the moment you step inside something like this, 30 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,000 the moment you're put inside something like this, you become a prisoner. 31 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,840 It's really uncomfortable, and it's very intimidating. 32 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,320 It was once a Soviet Gulag, 33 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:46,480 with prisoners forced into hard labor under a terrifying regime. 34 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,800 As little as five years ago, 35 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,560 Zhytomyr faced allegations of prison guard corruption, 36 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,960 brutality and even torture of inmates. 37 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,160 I'm about to find out firsthand 38 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,560 the stark reality of life inside this desolate, impoverished prison. 39 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,560 [officer in Ukrainian] Convict, you arrived to serve a sentence 40 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:12,360 in Zhytomyr Correctional Facility Colony 4. 41 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,200 Now you will be taken to a room where you will be searched. 42 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:22,840 [Rowe in English] Stepping into the compound, 43 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:27,080 I'm immediately confronted by something I wasn't prepared for. 44 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,640 There's no sense of anybody being here. It's quite eerie, actually. 45 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,120 I would expect, the moment I walk into a prison complex like this, 46 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,240 to hear the sounds of prisoners. I'm hearing nothing. 47 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,080 Just seeing two prisoners... Actually, I'm seeing a few prisoners. 48 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:57,920 They're just looking at me. 49 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 It's the silence that is really intimidating me at the moment. 50 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,440 As a new inmate, the guards strip search me 51 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,720 to make sure I'm not carrying any contraband. 52 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,160 When you do these searches, what is it you're looking for? 53 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,440 [in Ukrainian] Money, SIM cards, drugs. 54 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:23,120 Take off your underpants. 55 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,320 [Rowe] Whenever you've got to take your clothes off for an inspection... 56 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:28,640 [in Ukrainian] Turn around. 57 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,840 [Rowe] ...you're doing it unwillingly. 58 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,720 It's never comfortable getting your cock out 59 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,120 in front of a guard or anybody when you don't want to. 60 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,280 The lack of money in this place is already obvious. 61 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,360 Their whole processing seems very basic. 62 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,960 There's no paper work, no fingerprinting, no picture taken. 63 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,880 They just take my clothes off, search 'em, 64 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,920 and then throw me into the belly of the prison. 65 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,840 Before I'm shown to the cells, I'm ordered to do one last thing. 66 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:01,920 [exclaiming] 67 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,000 Sorry, I just can't talk. The water's so cold. 68 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,800 I'm being taken to a zone of the prison called Colony 4. 69 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,920 While it's deemed the lower-security section, 70 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,920 many of its inmates are doing time for murder, rape and robbery. 71 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,000 I'm wary of what awaits me. 72 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,480 Um, I didn't expect this. This is a dormitory. 73 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,400 There must be at least 30, 40 beds in here. 74 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,840 There's even a window over there. I'm seeing big windows with no bars, 75 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:50,360 which is really strange. 76 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,800 A fellow inmate has been tasked with showing me the ropes, 77 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,320 and, like the prison, he's not what I expected. 78 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,160 -Hello. How you doing? -Hi. I'm Johnny. 79 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,400 -Nice to meet you. I'm Raphael. -Nice to meet you, too. 80 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,280 [Rowe] Johnny, originally from Cameroon, is the only black man in the prison 81 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,160 and helps get me settled. 82 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,080 -This is heavy, eh? -[laughs] 83 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,560 God, this is a bit heavier than I thought it was going to be. 84 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,120 [Johnny] Hey, you've got to be strong, man. 85 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,560 [Rowe] While Johnny's welcoming, the other prisoners are keeping their distance. 86 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,200 The Soviet culture of suspicion and silence seems to live on. 87 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,280 But I've gotta get to know my dormitory mates and... 88 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,000 at the moment they don't look like they're engaging with me very much. 89 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,680 And a lot will depend on my relationship with these guys and how we communicate. 90 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,280 The wrong look, the wrong posture, could send out the wrong signal. 91 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,160 I desperately need a survival guide to life in the prison 92 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,280 and want to get the lowdown from Johnny, 93 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:58,960 who's six years into a ten-year sentence for murder. 94 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,800 I really need someone to tell me what the rules, regulations are. 95 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,320 The prisoners' rules and regulations. 96 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:10,800 The thing is, here, in order to live in peace with people, 97 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,400 don't try to know a lot, 98 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,000 because not everybody 99 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,800 feels comfortable when you try to know too much about their crimes. 100 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,920 And what's the regime here, in this dormitory? 101 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,240 What time do I have to get up? What time do I go to bed? 102 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,600 Uh, we have lights-out at ten o'clock. 103 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:33,320 But then, if you have some moments when you can't get sleep, 104 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,600 yeah, we have rooms there for eating and the TV room. 105 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,760 Oh, right. So you're not confined to this space, then. 106 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,800 Is the door that I came through, is that not locked? 107 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:45,760 No, it's not locked. 108 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,440 So how do they keep you in? 109 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,080 The gate downstairs, is that locked? The main gate? 110 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,280 There is a main gate, yeah. That is being locked. 111 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,160 -That's the one that I came through? -Yeah. 112 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,600 So you could come out and go outside all day, all night? 113 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,880 -That's right. -Really? That is freedom. 114 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,520 What about the guards? How do I cope with the guards? 115 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,440 -We have a regime here. -Okay. 116 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,480 So you do your best to live life according to the orders. 117 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,120 -Yeah. -Otherwise? 118 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,840 Otherwise, you will live in the Pit. 119 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,200 That's where those who break the laws in here spend their time. 120 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,159 [Rowe] I was expecting total lockdown, but provided prisoners stick to the rules: 121 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,360 no fighting, no contraband and no stealing... 122 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,200 it seems they can roam around the desolate grounds at will. 123 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,080 So, here we go. 124 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,760 -There's never a lock on this door? -Yeah, it's always open. 125 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,040 So you have the freedom to go out here, 126 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,560 and this is the main hub of the prison is, if you like, is it? 127 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:57,480 Yeah. 128 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,880 Here, we brush our teeth, we take a bath. 129 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,400 Does that shower work? 130 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,520 -It works. -Hot water? 131 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:08,560 No, no hot water. 132 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,400 So, this is the toilet. 133 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:12,960 -Okay. -Yeah. 134 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:15,880 [groans] 135 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,480 Yeah, that's-- 136 00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:19,600 -Oh, my God. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. 137 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,000 I can't stand it here. I'm sorry. I can't. It's just horrible. 138 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,160 [toilet flushing] 139 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,360 The smell is just disgusting. 140 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,520 Like most prisons in Ukraine, 141 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,040 Zhytomyr has had little money spent on its infrastructure 142 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,920 since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. 143 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,000 The prison has clearly seen better days, 144 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,200 and I'm struggling to get my head around this place. 145 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,160 I'm blown away by the freedom 146 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,160 that the first set of prisoners that I've met have. 147 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,520 Johnny made one mention of the Pit. 148 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,040 The Pit being the place where they take prisoners and punish them, 149 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,760 which suggests to me that there is a darker side. 150 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:14,640 [music playing over PA] 151 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,200 6:00 a.m. in Colony 4, and I'm in for a rude awakening. 152 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,040 [in Russian] Get up. Get dressed. 153 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,200 Go to the toilet and then exercise. 154 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,640 [Rowe] It's the early hours of the morning, 155 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,640 and the national anthem's playing. 156 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,640 And the guys are getting up out of their bed. 157 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,800 I'm told that now is the time they do some early morning physical activity. 158 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,960 [man speaking Ukrainian over PA] 159 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,480 [Rowe] My prison guide, Johnny, leads the way in the morning exercise routine. 160 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:47,920 Right, okay. 161 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,520 Although, not everyone seems to share his enthusiasm. 162 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,080 Why is the guy at the back not doing it with us? 163 00:10:58,160 --> 00:10:59,280 Has he had enough already? 164 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,120 You take it quite seriously, Johnny, don't you? 165 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:04,400 You're the only one. 166 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,560 Under the old Soviet regime, 167 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,880 every minute of prisoner's lives was ruthlessly controlled by the authorities. 168 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,160 But since 2014, a pro-European government 169 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,440 has tried to introduce more liberal prisoner rights. 170 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:21,720 It's now left to inmates to choose 171 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,200 if they want to take part in morning physical drills. 172 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,400 -That's the end of it? Finished? -[speaking indistinctly] 173 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,760 Now I've warmed up, I'm ready for some hard labor. 174 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:45,160 Covering almost 200,000 square meters, Zhytomyr is like a mini city. 175 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,440 Incredibly, it has a huge industrial zone 176 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,040 containing a metalwork factory and a sawmill. 177 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,960 It's a legacy of its time as a Soviet Gulag, 178 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,800 when prisoners were forced to work or face brutal punishment. 179 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,520 But with Ukraine's government adopting European reforms, 180 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,680 convicts can no longer be forced to take jobs. 181 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,040 Eugene Znaeshav is one prisoner who has chosen to work, 182 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,280 wielding an axe in the logging yard. 183 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,120 How you doing? 184 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,040 -[in Russian] Good afternoon. -Good to meet you. 185 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,000 So this is your job, chopping wood? 186 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,400 Yes. 187 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,440 Well, look, I'm gonna pull up my sleeves, 188 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,840 and you show me what to do, and I'll have a go, all right? 189 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,880 Here's an easy one for you to start. 190 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:38,480 So, that's the hard one, right? 191 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:39,400 Take it. 192 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:42,240 Mmm, okay. 193 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,240 No, you won't be able to cut that one. 194 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,000 You're giving me little ones, like I can't do the big ones. 195 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,640 They're harder to hit in the middle, 'cause they're so... Now we're talking. 196 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,080 Want a big one? Take a bigger one. 197 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:53,600 Now we're talking. 198 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:54,800 Hit it harder. 199 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,040 No, hit it straight. Straight. 200 00:12:58,760 --> 00:12:59,640 Harder. 201 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,040 Look. 202 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:04,840 That's how you do it. 203 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:06,920 Okay, so there is a technique to it. 204 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,240 There I am, thinking it's just... swinging. 205 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:12,360 How long are you serving? 206 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:15,120 Fifteen years. 207 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:16,200 [Rowe] Fifteen years? 208 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,920 And what... what are you serving 15 years for? What was your crime? 209 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,440 I'm sentenced for murder. 210 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:24,840 Did you say murder? 211 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,120 That's okay. That's okay. Keep chopping. Don't get distracted. 212 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,280 [Rowe] I'm suddenly relieved the axe is in my hands. 213 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:35,680 That's it. 214 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,440 [Rowe] I find it so amazing that somebody convicted of murder 215 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,560 is able to access tools that could be used as weapons. 216 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,240 If you do something bad to someone else, you can lose privileges 217 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,200 or even get more time to serve, 218 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,080 because this is punishable by law. 219 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,360 Any stupid ideas, they don't belong here. 220 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,800 Here you'll find reasonable people, same as on the other side of the fence. 221 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:03,920 That is so true. 222 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,280 And what happens to all this wood that you chop? Where does it end up? 223 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,240 It goes abroad in containers to lots of places. 224 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,480 To Europe. Everything goes for export. 225 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:17,200 Are you paid by the prison for doing this job? 226 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Yes, they pay. 227 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,080 The more you've chopped, the more salary that you get. 228 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,880 I'm just here when I have free time to come and chop. 229 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,240 You can chop for an hour today, tomorrow three hours. 230 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,480 [Rowe] Allowing prisoners access to lethal weapons is not without risk. 231 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,760 Just a few weeks before my time here, 232 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,080 an inmate working on a prison pig farm in Odessa, 233 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,600 raped and then hacked to death a female prison guard, 234 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,560 with the use of an axe. 235 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,040 It never happened in my day. 236 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,400 You would never, in a million years, have been able to access something like an axe 237 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,360 in any of the prisons that I spent 12 years in. 238 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,200 And I suspect that it is something 239 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,960 that doesn't happen in prisons all over the world. 240 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:08,520 But it does here. 241 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,520 Ironically, the prison would be better off if more of its inmates were put to work. 242 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,600 But as many have embraced their new-found rights not to take up jobs, 243 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,360 it's had a knock-on effect on the income of the prison. 244 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,960 If seeing convicts roaming about with axes and chainsaws wasn't startling enough, 245 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,640 my day is about to take another strange twist. 246 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,440 When Zhytomyr had an industrial labor camp working at full tilt, 247 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,720 it also needed its own fire service. 248 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,920 And it still has one. 249 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,160 Grigory Kovalchuk, who's nine years into a fourteen-year sentence for murder, 250 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,280 is the head fireman. 251 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:09,440 He's agreed to let me join in one of the fire brigade's training drills. 252 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,640 I never imagined that a prison could fulfill one of my boyhood dreams. 253 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:19,000 [chuckles] Hey! 254 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,600 It's just really bizarre. 255 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,120 I've been in some prisons, and I've never experienced anything like this. 256 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,520 It kind of shot out and then it was all over. 257 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,400 The prison's industrial zone may or may not need a fire service. 258 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:40,880 But I wonder if the training is helping Grigory plan for his future outside. 259 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,240 So, do you think this is a skill that you would be able to take out 260 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,040 when you get released and find a job? 261 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,320 [in Ukrainian] No one would take me on. 262 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,600 I'm a convict. And it is the military who serve in the fire service. 263 00:16:54,680 --> 00:17:00,400 Why waste so many years learning and training to become a fireman 264 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,200 if you can't use this when you get outside? 265 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,079 This is Ukraine. These are our laws. 266 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,319 [Rowe] In a prison that says it is aiming to reform 267 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,440 and provide opportunities for rehabilitation, 268 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,359 it seems to me such a waste that an inmate can be in a job 269 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,960 that will lead to nothing when they leave. 270 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,880 But being head of the prison fire service does have its privileges. 271 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,600 Grigory has his own room above the station. 272 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,320 -Oh, this is... this is you? -[Grigory speaking Ukrainian] 273 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,640 Oh, right, so you have your own little private room. 274 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:37,280 Yes, I'm here alone. 275 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:39,400 Can I sit? Yeah? Come. 276 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,280 What are you in prison for? 277 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,080 Well, they sentenced me for murder, but I didn't do it. 278 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,520 What did you do? 279 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,440 I had a fight with a guy. Yes, we fought. 280 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,400 But I left and he was alive. Everything was fine. 281 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,280 But in the morning, they found him dead. 282 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:00,840 Why did you have a fight? 283 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,600 I don't really want to talk about it. 284 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,360 It's heavy on my soul, but I can't do anything about it. 285 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,960 [Rowe] I'm keen to know what Grigory thinks about reforms to the prison, 286 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,040 having served nine years here. 287 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,520 Do you think the previous regime, 288 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,960 where work was compulsory, was a better regime? 289 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,400 Of course. Everyone knew their place. 290 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,960 I think everyone in prison should work. 291 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,120 But now, it's chaos, a mess. 292 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,480 Now, it's not a prison, it's a kindergarten. 293 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,360 [Rowe] I was shocked to hear Grigory say he preferred the old regime, 294 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,560 but it's no surprise that, when given the choice, 295 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,280 many of the inmates have chosen not to work. 296 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,720 With the day nearing its end, 297 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,280 it's time to help out in one of the most important sections in any prison, 298 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,640 the kitchens. 299 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,720 The chronic lack of funding for Ukraine's penitentiaries 300 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,000 means very little is spent on meals for the inmates. 301 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,080 I've heard the government provide them 302 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,840 with food worth 60 cents a day. 303 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,840 60 cents. I mean, think about that. 304 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,040 What could you prepare for your family or friends for 60 cents a day? 305 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,320 I'm about to find out by joining the team. 306 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,040 Headed by former chef Bogdan Noverko, 307 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:33,480 they are all convicts doing time for murder. 308 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,360 Hi, how you doing? 309 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,520 I'm told that this is where you are preparing the food. 310 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,320 Do I get to put on a nice apron? 311 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:41,840 [in Russian] Yes, of course. 312 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,440 [Rowe] There you go. 313 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,560 So, what do you want me to do? 314 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:49,680 [prisoner 1 in Russian] Normally, a portion is half a bowl. 315 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,200 Three quarters of a bowl. About that height, right? 316 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,160 Yes, yes, yes. 317 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,160 [Rowe] Place is primitive. It really is primitive. 318 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,120 I mean, I'm looking at his dishes. 319 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,760 What comes to mind? Oliver Twist. "Please, sir, can I have some more?" 320 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,320 Guy says the food tastes nice. 321 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:07,320 It doesn't look very nice. 322 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,320 I mean, I have no idea what this is. 323 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,720 Right. Can I taste this? See what it tastes like? 324 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,040 Ugh. 325 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,040 And you said this is nice? 326 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:22,960 You were tricking me, right? 327 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,360 That is horrible. 328 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,040 Okay, I'm gonna continue to sacrifice my tongue and taste buds. 329 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:31,760 So this is chicken, right? 330 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,800 I just can't eat that, because I can't find any meat there. 331 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,880 That's just bone. It's like the stock you put in chicken. Where is the meat? 332 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:41,400 [prisoner 2 in Russian] Here's meat. 333 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,160 You think this is meat? 334 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,040 Watch. Listen to this. 335 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,520 That's bone. That's not meat. 336 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,120 For me, this is survival food. 337 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,600 This is not about taste, is it? It's about survival? 338 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,040 Most probably survival food. 339 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,440 If you don't eat, you'll die of hunger. 340 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,480 What simple thing do you think they could do to improve your diet? 341 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,160 [in Russian] Well, how would you put it? 342 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,760 This is not about the ministry and not about our system. 343 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,720 It's about the country. 344 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,400 We have a state that has got debts all around and no budget. 345 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,600 They just can't allocate more to convicts than they allocate now. 346 00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,880 [Rowe] Although Bogdan and the kitchen inmates are doing their best, 347 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,280 they face an uphill task. 348 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:34,760 I tried to be nice, but the food was disgusting. 349 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,640 But that's no surprise, is it? 350 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:43,080 Because if 60 cents a day is all these guys get spent on their food, 351 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,160 it's gonna and should taste disgusting because it's got no ingredients. 352 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,080 It's no wonder I've yet to see any overweight inmates 353 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,160 and why prisoners here seem so lethargic. 354 00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:00,640 Every aspect of this place is showing the strain of being broke. 355 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:13,040 Until now, I've been locked up in the relative freedom of medium security, 356 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:16,880 alongside serious criminals doing time for murder. 357 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,240 Across the prison compound is maximum security, 358 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,560 where almost 200 inmates are on total lockdown. 359 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,280 Despite severe underfunding, 360 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,840 this unit has to contain some of the country's most terrifying criminals, 361 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:37,200 and I'm about to meet one of the very worst. 362 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,080 I'm now being escorted through Zhytomyr's maximum security prison. 363 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,320 They call this one Colony 8. 364 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,480 Colony 8 holds many inmates whose crimes are so severe, 365 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,520 they will end their days here. 366 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,760 This is definitely a throwback from the Soviet era. 367 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:08,160 It just has that atmosphere, that feeling, that darkness about it. 368 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,080 The unit is home to one of the world's most prolific serial killers, 369 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,200 Serhiy Tkach. 370 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,960 In 2008, Tkach, a former Russian police officer, 371 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,480 was found guilty and sentenced to life without parole 372 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,200 for the brutal rape and murder of 37 females, 373 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,360 some as young as 8 years old. 374 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,800 With a disturbing taste for necrophilia, 375 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,760 it's suspected there are many more victims unaccounted for 376 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,200 from his 25-year reign of terror. 377 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,720 Even after all my years spent inside 378 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,760 with some of the UK's most violent criminals, 379 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,160 nothing has ever prepared me for meeting such a monster. 380 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,160 [Rowe] You can sit down? 381 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,640 I myself have some experience of life in a maximum security prison. 382 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,560 When you were committing the crimes that you were committing, 383 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,920 did you ever expect to be caught? 384 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,480 [in Russian] Difficult question. 385 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,600 A very difficult one. 386 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,040 The French say, "Cherchez la femme." 387 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,840 Women are guilty of everything. Or, "Look for a woman." 388 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,720 Is it true you killed more than 34 women and children 389 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,880 and potentially another 100? 390 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,120 I did not appeal the verdict. If 30, so be it. 391 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,560 Well, how many people did you kill? 392 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,000 If you believe the media, then please do. 393 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,520 When you were first caught, I read that you wanted to be put to death. 394 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,400 Do you still want to be put to death, 395 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:28,920 or is there something now that makes you want to live your life? 396 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:33,720 For the love of my daughter and my wife. 397 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:46,200 I'm really surprised to hear that you are married and you have a child. 398 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:52,000 Is this a marriage and a child that you had before you came to prison? 399 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,120 No. [clears throat] 400 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,800 How long have you been married and how old is your child? 401 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,000 If my daughter is one year old in December, 402 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,560 it means more than two years. 403 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,160 [Rowe] Ukraine's liberal reforms have seen this mass murderer 404 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,240 marry and father a daughter, all from behind bars. 405 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,360 It was probably the creepiest moment of my life. 406 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,880 When he first came into the room, 407 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,920 my heart was pounding. 408 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,240 I have been in the company of men who have done horrible things 409 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,840 and committed horrific crimes, 410 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,800 including rape and murder. 411 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,880 But I've never spent time in the company of someone like that. 412 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:52,920 I was gobsmacked when he told me that he was now married to a woman, 413 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,640 that he'd had a child with this woman just over a year ago. 414 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,960 In two days' time, Tkach's wife is coming to the prison for a conjugal visit... 415 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:08,800 and I've been told he's invited me to meet her. 416 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,120 [song playing over PA] 417 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,120 A new morning in Zhytomyr. 418 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,840 And in the exercise yard, two inmates seek me out. 419 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,000 [in Russian] After a while in prison, 420 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,160 you can tell from another person's face that he has done time. 421 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,040 You're very astute that you recognize that I've been to prison before. 422 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:38,360 Perhaps for murder or stabbing. 423 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,320 All right. It's true, though, isn't it? 424 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,920 Prisoners have a certain demeanor? 425 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,440 I recognize that. 426 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,600 You unwillingly become a psychologist. You study people. 427 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,640 Sure, sure. How long have you been in prison? 428 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,080 -[in English] Three years. -Three? 429 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,160 -Yes. -And the main man? 430 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,080 Ten, eleven years? 431 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,160 And what about the relationship between you prisoners and the staff? 432 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,440 I heard it used to be quite brutal here. 433 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,240 Prisoners used to be treated quite rough. 434 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,840 They used to suffer brutality, even torture, I'm hearing, in the past. 435 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,240 [prisoner 1 in Russian] Yes, yes, yes. 436 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:14,680 [Johnny in English] He said, "That's right." 437 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,240 [in Russian] They did used to beat us. 438 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,720 If there was low output, they beat us. 439 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:24,320 If you were working and did not produce your normal output at the end of the day, 440 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,160 in the evening they would drag you under the tower and beat you up. 441 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,000 Or they would lock you in the Pit and beat you. 442 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,800 Did he witness it? Did he ever see somebody suffer that? 443 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,040 -I was working in the wood shop. -I agree. 444 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,440 I brought the guy his breakfast. 445 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:47,240 I opened the feeding hole, and the prisoner was by the window. 446 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,240 -Prisoner had hung himself? -Yeah, yeah. 447 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,080 -Was he dead? -He was dead already. 448 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,200 [prisoner 2] I ran up, lifted him, cut it... 449 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,800 -[Johnny] And he was already dead? -Yes, yes, yes. 450 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,040 There was a duty officer sitting there. 451 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,280 I told him, "Go open the door. 452 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,880 A guy has hanged himself." 453 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,400 He said, "I don't believe you. You will tell me stories." 454 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,600 How long ago was this? 455 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,400 About one and a half years ago. 456 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:15,960 [Rowe] In the past five years, 457 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,760 Ukraine has had more complaints of prisoner abuse reported 458 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,600 to the European Court of Human Rights than any other nation. 459 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,640 The two inmates' claims of brutality makes me question 460 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,040 how much has really changed under the new regime. 461 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,200 Today, I hope to hear what it's like to be a guard, 462 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,520 as I switch sides and experience life as a prison officer. 463 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,080 I'm joining patrol guard Maxim Romanov, who's worked here for 8 years, 464 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,720 as he conducts a search of a factory in the industrial zone. 465 00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,920 [Rowe] What are you looking for? 466 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:06,920 [in Ukrainian] They can make some objects, like knives, 467 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:13,960 which can later be used to assault the guards and other convicts. 468 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,040 [Rowe] I find it bizarre that they're looking for items 469 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,160 that could be adapted into weapons 470 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,240 when so many dangerous tools are easily available here. 471 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,040 Broken glass just lying around on the side. Lots of it. 472 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,920 I know these guys are doing their job 473 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,080 and it's a requirement that they search the premises that the prisoners work in, 474 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,680 looking for contraband or weapons and stuff. 475 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,080 It just feels a bit farcical. 476 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,480 [Rowe] In this high risk environment 477 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,040 where murderers have easy access to lethal weapons, 478 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,280 the understaffed officers have their work cut out. 479 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,320 What are your shift patterns here in the prison? 480 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,120 [in Ukrainian] Our shift lasts 24 hours, and then we are at home for three days. 481 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,240 We have time for rest... 482 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,680 but no more than four hours a day. 483 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,680 Do you earn enough money to do the work that you do? 484 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,560 It's a difficult question. 485 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,600 I say straight away, there is a saying, "There is always too little money." 486 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,200 Now our wages are too small. 487 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,000 We get less than $200 a month. 488 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:40,280 Is it difficult for the service to keep officers like yourself 489 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,960 and even recruit new prison officers? 490 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,320 It is a big problem. 491 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,840 Because of the low salaries, 492 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:57,000 many people don't want to work here. 493 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,600 [Rowe] Despite low morale, 494 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,760 the officers still take their jobs very seriously. 495 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,520 And their highest priority is ensuring that no one escapes. 496 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,200 The first fence is the main barrier. 497 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,480 If there is a breakout and a convict climbs over it, 498 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,000 this territory is under control of the guards standing on the towers. 499 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,320 It means they can shoot to kill. 500 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,000 [Rowe] The guards must be doing something right. 501 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:38,320 In Zhytomyr's 110-year history, no convict has ever escaped. 502 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,680 While the authorities want to move away from the previous regime's brutality, 503 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:55,280 there's one unit from the Gulag era that still holds a fearsome reputation. 504 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,560 This is the entrance to the Pit. 505 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,600 This isolation unit holds prisoners caught with alcohol or drugs 506 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,600 and those found stealing or fighting. 507 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,080 They can spend up to two weeks in the Pit, locked in a cramped cell, 508 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,880 with nothing but bare walls and the inside of their heads for distraction. 509 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,680 I know from my own time spent in solitary just how punishing it can be. 510 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360 The Pit is where the inmate from the exercise yard 511 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,560 told me he'd found a fellow prisoner who'd hung himself. 512 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,840 The guards have allowed me access to one of the convicts locked up in here. 513 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,320 Hello? Can you come to the gate to talk to me? 514 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,320 Why are you down here? 515 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,760 [in Ukrainian] For the systematic violation of colony rules. 516 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:53,320 Have you been down here before? 517 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:54,960 No, this is my first time. 518 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,720 How often are you let out of your cell to go and exercise? 519 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,240 Once a day, one hour walk. 520 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,320 You spend 23 hours a day in your cell? 521 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:07,360 Yes. 522 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,960 How does that make you feel? 523 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,800 If you constantly think about it, you can go nuts. 524 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:17,960 It's better not to think about it. 525 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:24,360 It's very bad for your mental health. 526 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,960 [Rowe] I'm keen to see what Pit captain, Viktor Los, thinks of the new regime. 527 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,000 Ten or fifteen years ago, the discipline was different. 528 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:37,920 How different was it? 529 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,040 [in Russian] Now convicts get lots of human rights, 530 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,440 lots of privileges. 531 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,840 I believe if a convict is taken to prison for some violations, 532 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,679 he should endure the punishment. 533 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,240 Here, sometimes, people live better than on the outside. 534 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,080 [Rowe] Viktor's opinion may seem harsh, 535 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,760 but when many ordinary Ukrainians are struggling in a war-torn economy, 536 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,000 convincing the guards of prison reforms is clearly going to take work, 537 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,120 especially as their pay and morale is so low. 538 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,320 I'm meeting the man in charge of implementing these reforms, 539 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,360 Ukraine's Deputy Minister of Justice Denys Chernyshov. 540 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,760 Do you have the resources to do what it is that you want to do? 541 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,080 [in Ukrainian] At the moment, we are not moving as quickly as we would like. 542 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,600 But we are constantly working with government officials 543 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:44,640 to make them understand how important this system is because of the society. 544 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,240 How difficult is it to motivate your staff when they are paid so low? 545 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:54,080 Well, it's clear that the level of pay is hugely important, 546 00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,600 because this determines the kind of staff we can hire 547 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,920 and how much they will be motivated. 548 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:12,000 Today, pay for the police is three times higher than ours. 549 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,880 And this is just illogical. 550 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,080 As ministers go, I thought he was quite open, quite frank 551 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,200 about the challenges he faces in changing the prison system here in Ukraine. 552 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,880 He has the desire to change things, but he just doesn't have the resources. 553 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,320 My time with the guards is at an end, 554 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,640 and the first prisoner who welcomed me here, Johnny, 555 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,520 has invited me to a surprising event. 556 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,520 -[music playing] -[Johnny singing in Ukrainian] 557 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,960 [Rowe] Every day, he runs a singing club, 558 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,120 where his fellow inmates can briefly forget their worries. 559 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,440 [continues singing] 560 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,000 [Rowe] In a country that has had a troubled history with racism, 561 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,920 I've worried about Johnny being the only black man in this prison. 562 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,880 But he seems to have a cult following. 563 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,280 [cheering] 564 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,280 [Rowe] Do you think Johnny's good, entertaining? 565 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,920 [in Russian] Johnny is my friend. 566 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,680 I love Johnny as a man loves a man, understand? 567 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:28,240 I understand that he is foreign here, but, at the same time, he is our own. 568 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,560 The convicts have accepted him because he is a man with a soul. 569 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,120 He is kind. He is so positive. 570 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,920 And Johnny runs this club, right? This happens every day. 571 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,800 A bit of music and recreation away from normality, prison life. 572 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:43,440 You can come in here, listen to some music, 573 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,600 and forget where you are, if for only 5 minutes. 574 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,560 Yes, it's true. I come here quite often. 575 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,200 I come to him and sing songs and dance here for at least 15 minutes, 576 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,080 and I leave a completely different person, with a different aura. 577 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,920 [Rowe] In a place full of surprises, there's one still to come. 578 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,440 Raphael... 579 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:06,760 -That's my name. -[Johnny] So, yeah... 580 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,160 Please would you come over, so we can do some singing together? 581 00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:13,160 No. 582 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,360 So you're not asking me. 583 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,480 You've planned and plotted this, haven't you? 584 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,840 -Like a true criminal. -No, it's like... I do it for everybody. 585 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,600 Okay, I'm willing. But only if these guys want me to, 586 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,280 because it's gonna be painful. 587 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,160 [Johnny in Ukrainian] We're going to sing a Ukrainian folk song. 588 00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:32,440 ♪ There is a hut On the edge of the village ♪ 589 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,480 [repeating lyrics] 590 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:35,520 [in English] That's good! 591 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,600 ♪ The spruce looks at the window ♪ 592 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,040 [repeating lyrics incorrectly] 593 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,840 -Oh, my God! That's something. -[prisoners laughing] 594 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,200 [Johnny] No, it's okay. 595 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,880 [in Ukrainian] ♪ The spruce looks at the window ♪ 596 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,720 [Rowe carefully repeating lyrics] 597 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,040 Beautiful. [chuckles] Okay, so... 598 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,800 [music playing] 599 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,840 ♪ There is a hut On the edge of the village ♪ 600 00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,360 ♪ The spruce looks at the window ♪ 601 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,880 ♪ The girl is inside the hut ♪ 602 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,360 ♪ But she's so far away ♪ 603 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:16,120 [Rowe] I admire Johnny's determination to stay positive, 604 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,760 and I want to find out more about him. 605 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,400 -[Johnny] Yeah, that's it! -Yes. 606 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,360 [Rowe] I've learned that he killed his long-term girlfriend 607 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,360 after catching her with her lover. 608 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,320 But I get the sense that he isn't able to confront his crime. 609 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,400 So, what did you think of that, then? How did I do? 610 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:37,400 It was great. 611 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,520 And you have some secret admirers in there. 612 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,080 There was one guy in particular who was talking to me. 613 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,240 -He thought you were brilliant. -I can't boast that I'm such a good guy, 614 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,200 but most of the guys around call me Mr. Positive. 615 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,280 But it can't be easy, you being in here. 616 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:57,760 Actually, it has to do with my view, how I perceive things, you know? 617 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,960 I paint a picture that I want to look at. 618 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,360 And I keep people, you know, not so close to myself. 619 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:14,800 Because, uh... once I get people close to me, I get hurt. 620 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,440 What was it you did, Johnny? 621 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,760 Just tell me that. I'm just so interested to know. 622 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,440 I took away human life. 623 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,080 -Whose life was it? -Oh, my God. Human life. 624 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,760 I don't like talking too much about it. 625 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,240 This happened, you know... 626 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,960 It could happen to anybody out there. 627 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,560 It's not like I took a gun, went to, you know... 628 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,640 and shot somebody or something like that. 629 00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:41,080 No, it just happened. It was an accident. 630 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,520 Why were you convicted of murder if it was an accident? 631 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,840 Did they not accept your explanation? 632 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,280 I didn't call the ambulance when this happened, so... 633 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,200 Oh, right. Didn't want to believe that something could happen-- 634 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,160 I was in a state of shock when this happened. 635 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,920 It's so unpleasant thinking about it again. 636 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,120 Every day, I feel... There is this guilt, you know? 637 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,080 When I just got into a prison, I had to punish myself for all this. 638 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,680 It's something very hard to bury. 639 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,000 What does your family think about your crime and your situation? 640 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,640 I do my best not to let anyone know what I'm going through. 641 00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:26,200 I decided to suffer the consequences of whatever I did all by myself. 642 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:32,320 Is that wise? Because surely you're taking all that pain and tearing up inside, 643 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,160 when, surely, the best thing to do is to express yourself 644 00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:39,400 so that you're not allowing your insides to eat away at who you really are. 645 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,600 Who should I be expressing it to? 646 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:42,680 I don't know. 647 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,200 Should I share it with a poor mum? 648 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,880 I think, uh, the right thing to do is... 649 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,040 to bury it for as long as I can. 650 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:57,240 I can see how desperate you are to be out of this place and to put this behind you. 651 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:58,360 Where's home? 652 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,120 I need to get to my mum. 653 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,280 -Where's your mum? In Cameroon? -Yeah. 654 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,520 I need to get to her. 655 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:07,080 It's been a while. 656 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,400 Does she know you're here? 657 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,840 She doesn't know I'm in prison. 658 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,240 That's gonna be a hard conversation. Or will you never tell her? 659 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,640 If this has to be said as history, 660 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:22,360 it's better than saying it like an ongoing incident or event. 661 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,880 [Rowe] Johnny is still clearly in pain and traumatized by his actions 662 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,160 that lead to the killing of his former partner. 663 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:38,120 Like any prisoner, he's had to find a coping strategy to survive inside, 664 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,480 but it's in the strangest prison I've ever known. 665 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,280 Tomorrow, it's going to get even stranger, 666 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,120 as I'm set to meet serial killer Tkach and his wife. 667 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:05,160 It's my last day in Zhytomyr prison, and I'm heading to a surreal encounter. 668 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:12,120 I'm back in the maximum security part of the prison complex, Colony 8. 669 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:18,480 I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I'm... about to meet Tkach and his wife 670 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,480 in the conjugal visit part of the prison. 671 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,280 Ukraine's current laws allow any married prisoners, 672 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,160 even serial killers, 673 00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:32,000 the right to a three-day conjugal visit every two months, 674 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,840 and Tkach's wife, Elena, has joined him. 675 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,120 Thank you for letting me come into your space. 676 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,160 -[Serhiy in Russian] You're welcome. -You're smiling today. 677 00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:44,080 The other day when I met you, you didn't have such a big smile. 678 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,320 It is a happy day for me. 679 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,200 Only once in two months do I have such a long visit. 680 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,560 This is very different to where we met the other day, 681 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,360 where we spoke and you were inside a cage and you were very controlled. 682 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:01,600 [in Russian] Yes, here I am in control. 683 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,080 [Rowe] Before I can find out more about Elena, 684 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,520 Tkach is eager to show off the conjugal cell's facilities. 685 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,520 I have a fridge, freezer. 686 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:19,960 -This is my breakfast today. -Okay. 687 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,600 Eggs, fish, cured pork fat, bread and coffee. 688 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:27,640 I have these. 689 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:29,880 Oh, my God. 690 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,440 They are not weapons, just household items. 691 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,040 [mouthing] I can't believe this. 692 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,760 On the face of it, this could be the flat of any ordinary married couple, 693 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,560 but this relationship is far from normal, 694 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,920 and I want to try and understand what drew 25-year-old Elena 695 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,600 to 65-year-old mass murderer Tkach. 696 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,200 What is it that first attracted you to Tkach? 697 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,480 I'm still asking myself that question. 698 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,600 Perhaps when I saw his interview and how he was talking about himself. 699 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:11,120 His manners, I guess, some sort of magnetism. 700 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,880 And what was it that you wrote in that very first letter you sent to him? 701 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,240 I wrote, truthfully, that I saw his interview 702 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,640 and wanted to communicate, to have a conversation 703 00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:25,400 and just to get to know him better. 704 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,520 [Serhiy] Dozens of letters... 705 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,760 -[sniffs] Perfume. -I was trying to make him like me. 706 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,200 And what was it like 707 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,160 when you were first allowed to have your very first conjugal visit? 708 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:42,440 Every hour, they came and checked. 709 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,200 Everything is fine. Everything is okay. 710 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,760 She is alive and well. 711 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,360 Yes, and only when they were convinced... 712 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,920 They checked to see that she was still alive? 713 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,560 Today, we can sit together, hug and kiss freely. 714 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,120 Yes? 715 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,600 -[Serhiy] Darling, yes. -I've marked you with my lipstick. 716 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:06,520 [laughs] 717 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,000 No worries, I'll eat it. 718 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,760 How do you feel about the fact that he is in prison for... 719 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:18,600 murder, rape, of many young girls and women? 720 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,520 I do not believe in the total number of cases. 721 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,760 I think it was a lot less. 722 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,360 And, secondly, it does not matter that much to me. 723 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,920 Women will want to know, Elena... 724 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,040 Men, I suspect, would want to know... 725 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:42,280 what you feel when Tkach's hands are caressing you... 726 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,440 during these three days of conjugal visits, 727 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,480 knowing the crimes that he's committed. 728 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,240 This is an intimate question, and I do not want to answer it. 729 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,720 I will just say that I do not feel any fear or negativity at those moments. 730 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:58,960 [Serhiy scoffs] 731 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:04,840 How do you feel about the families of the people Tkach killed and raped? 732 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:09,560 I don't feel guilty, because I did not commit those crimes. 733 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,280 Of course, I wouldn't wish this on anyone, 734 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:19,640 and if it happened to my family, I would punish that person. 735 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,040 But I did not do anything. 736 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,080 You have a child together? 737 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:26,360 Yes. 738 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,360 How did you feel when you found out you were pregnant? 739 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:30,440 Happiness. 740 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,760 I wanted this baby, and he wanted this baby. 741 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,080 But you haven't brought your daughter to meet Tkach yet? 742 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,880 The thing is my daughter was born in Russia. 743 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,480 And right now my parents and the officials 744 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:50,520 do not allow me to take my child to this country with me. 745 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,400 [Rowe] I can't believe that just took place. 746 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,880 I can't believe that I just sat inside a cell, 747 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,600 inside a maximum security prison, 748 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:08,800 with Ukraine's most notorious serial killer and his wife, Elena. 749 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,320 This woman is sharing three days in a room with a man 750 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,400 who may have the desire to kill her at any moment. 751 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,640 And she knows that, and he knows that. 752 00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:19,960 Is she sick in the head? 753 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,920 Well, she is very articulate. She's very to the point 754 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,160 that she recognizes he's done horrible things, but she doesn't care. 755 00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:32,680 She recognizes that she could be his victim, but she doesn't care. 756 00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,920 And I struggle with the idea 757 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:41,240 that such a man should be allowed to touch a woman ever again. 758 00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:50,960 Zhytomyr is a strange, baffling prison 759 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:57,200 where the crumbling buildings echo with the history of its time as a Soviet Gulag. 760 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,240 Where convicted murderers can wield axes, 761 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,360 one of the world's worst serial killers is able to marry and father a child, 762 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:12,120 and the whole system is struggling to survive on next to no funding. 763 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,560 I hope that Johnny can come to terms with his crime 764 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,280 and eventually make it home to his mum. 765 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,840 And that despite all the challenges facing it, 766 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,320 Zhytomyr can forge a future fit for the new Ukraine.